Author Topic: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.  (Read 18341 times)

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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2011, 10:52:51 PM »
Quote
Normal: Anybody can try to jump down on an enemy, but it is not considered a charge, and they do not gain...
If the text in Benefit is ambiguous, which I agree it is, the Normal section clarifies it perfectly.
What this sentence says is that while anyone can jump on an enemy, only those with Battle Jump can execute a charge by doing so. No part of this mentions that those with Battle Jump can't do so.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2011, 10:55:17 PM »
What this sentence says is that while anyone can jump on an enemy, only those with Battle Jump can execute a charge by doing so. No part of this mentions that those with Battle Jump can't do so.
Are the underlined and bolded not equivalent statements?

Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2011, 11:08:36 PM »
They are. The emphasis was to indicate that your proposal actually prevented the owner of the feat from executing the charge as per my interpretation.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2011, 11:52:17 PM »
blah
He's not stating that things need to be explicitly said. The Charging rules already exist and the feat alters them. We know how Power Attack works because it alters attacks and we know how attacks work. Not really the point though. Consider this...

Quote
Normal: Anybody can try to jump down on an enemy, but it is not considered a charge, and they do not gain...
If the text in Benefit is ambiguous, which I agree it is, the Normal section clarifies it perfectly.
Actually...
Quote
The rules are the rules, and the way the rules work is that things don't change unless it is stated they change.

Yes he is.  :P

And I agree with you. The normal section clarifies it well. My take on it is, Jumping Down is a move action (whether you're trying to land on an opponent or the ground is immaterial). Battle Jump changes Jumping Down into a charge. You CAN intentionally jump up and fall down for the same effect, and jump on your opponent's head for a charge. This will take you a move action.
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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2011, 12:23:08 AM »
But what if, for example, a character does not jump down intentionally, but rather falls due to a sudden folding of its wings? The feat does state that you only have to drop from at least five feet above a medium foe.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2011, 12:41:09 AM »
But what if, for example, a character does not jump down intentionally, but rather falls due to a sudden folding of its wings? The feat does state that you only have to drop from at least five feet above a medium foe.

Assuming he did so intentionally, he's still taking a move action (you don't get the benefit of the feat if someone threw you around). By definition, you take a move action to move.  :P

In order to go Mario on people, you need several actions; falling does not consume them, but getting up to the desired height does (whether via teleportation, jumping, etc.). This is, of course, if you don't have a Wizard buddy to teleport you around with spells such as Benign Transposition.

Funnily enough, this could allow you to pounce outside your action, because falling down does not happen only on your turn.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2011, 01:44:06 AM »
Would the ability to split-move change any of this, as in the ability to take a different action in the middle of a move action?

Akalsaris

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2011, 02:35:28 AM »
Can we at least all agree that Battle Jump is both poorly worded and poorly thought out?  :lmao

Shiki

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2011, 02:41:53 AM »
Can we at least all agree that Battle Jump is both poorly worded and poorly thought out?  :lmao

The idea behind the feat isn't, but the wording is terrible to say the least.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2011, 03:23:46 AM »
Kuro, I hope you're not allergic to straw, man.  :lol

Reductio ad absurdum is a valid debate tactic.

I will grant that without an official word you can't confirm it, but I don't consider that to be a good enough reason for people to claim they aren't wrong. The rules are the rules, and the way the rules work is that things don't change unless it is stated they change. Therefore, charging is a full round action unless specifically stated otherwise. It's really not that difficult, I don't understand why people try to make up benefits to things that aren't there. It's like saying you can persist spell a supernatural or spell-like ability. By the rules, you can't, despite the fact that it sortof looks like you could. This is a similar situation, it sortof looks like there is a possibility that the action for a charge changes, however, that's not what it says and by the Charging rules, charging is a full round action.

In other words, just because we can't get a confirmation either way is no excuse for being wrong, or claiming that an invalid interpretation is valid.
Power Attack doesn't say that using it doesn't require a full-round action and grants you wings and a bigger penis, therefore it does.

A Wizard having a d4 hitdie clearly means he gets the class features of a commoner. And only that.

Sucking on a goat's balls make you hairy.

Do any of those points seem valid to you?
No, they don't, that's why you shouldn't use logic that makes such statements logical, the way you do constantly. That's exactly what I just said. Why do you always say things that require such tragically stupid things to be rational?

Quote
The wording is ambiguous enough that you can't tell either way. Your point not long before was that not everything need be explicitly said. Now you're arguing that everything needs to be explicitly stated. I'm kind of sorry that I don't agree with you, because it would spare me having to point out your inconsistency. The sentence:
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You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent.

Seems explicit enough to me. That it doesn't to you doesn't make YOU right any more than it does me.

Quote
Charging is a special full-round action
Oh, look, I can quote out of context too. Of course, at least my quote actually says something useful to the conversation, whereas yours requires mental masturbation to fit to your whims.
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Shiki

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2011, 03:46:22 AM »
^Fighter Man can't have good things? Let's all be wizards anyway they do everything better.
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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2011, 04:12:41 AM »
Now, now, guys. There's no need to insult anybody. It's not like any of us have never made a mistake or flawed argument.

Can we at least all agree that Battle Jump is both poorly worded and poorly thought out?  :lmao
Yes, definitely. Just poorly-worded enough to be simultaneously game-breaking and incredibly weak, depending on your interpretation.

Oh, look, I can quote out of context too. Of course, at least my quote actually says something useful to the conversation, whereas yours requires mental masturbation to fit to your whims.
Primarily, please don't insult anyone in my topic. I don't appreciate it. Secondarily, that quote still doesn't have any use in this argument because the entire argument is based on the context. Without the context there is no debate, and without a debate there cannot be a conclusion. In that event, this entire topic makes no sense.

ZeroKnight

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #92 on: February 19, 2011, 05:46:06 AM »
I'm confused, this trick obviously doesn't work. Why are people arguing about it?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #93 on: February 19, 2011, 10:47:44 AM »
Now, now, guys. There's no need to insult anybody. It's not like any of us have never made a mistake or flawed argument.

Can we at least all agree that Battle Jump is both poorly worded and poorly thought out?  :lmao
Yes, definitely. Just poorly-worded enough to be simultaneously game-breaking and incredibly weak, depending on your interpretation.

Oh, look, I can quote out of context too. Of course, at least my quote actually says something useful to the conversation, whereas yours requires mental masturbation to fit to your whims.
Primarily, please don't insult anyone in my topic. I don't appreciate it. Secondarily, that quote still doesn't have any use in this argument because the entire argument is based on the context. Without the context there is no debate, and without a debate there cannot be a conclusion. In that event, this entire topic makes no sense.

How is that out of context? We've been discussing this feat for four pages now.

Further, my quote had a point.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Brainpiercing

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2011, 11:01:38 AM »

Funnily enough, this could allow you to pounce outside your action, because falling down does not happen only on your turn.
That's pretty funny, actually. However, I believe that while the feat does not absolutely spell this out, it mentions "jumping" often enough to demand an intentional action on the part of the person using the feat. However, the feat does not specify that you have to jump at the beginning of your move.  In the OP's case, you couldn't go on, because you don't have a move action left to move back up, but you can still abuse it, for instance, do a martial strike or attack and then move, or do a flyby attack, and then at the end of your move, drop on someone. You don't have another FRA left, and your action ends afterwards, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

You can also use it to charge around corners, if you can jump high enough, or have Ex flight, or stuff like Up the Walls.

So I still think it's a good feat, even though I think it's clear that you can't get an infinite action loop anymore.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2011, 11:45:43 AM »

Funnily enough, this could allow you to pounce outside your action, because falling down does not happen only on your turn.
That's pretty funny, actually. However, I believe that while the feat does not absolutely spell this out, it mentions "jumping" often enough to demand an intentional action on the part of the person using the feat. However, the feat does not specify that you have to jump at the beginning of your move.  In the OP's case, you couldn't go on, because you don't have a move action left to move back up, but you can still abuse it, for instance, do a martial strike or attack and then move, or do a flyby attack, and then at the end of your move, drop on someone. You don't have another FRA left, and your action ends afterwards, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

You can also use it to charge around corners, if you can jump high enough, or have Ex flight, or stuff like Up the Walls.

So I still think it's a good feat, even though I think it's clear that you can't get an infinite action loop anymore.
Fair enough. How do you feel about readying an action in that context?
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #96 on: February 19, 2011, 02:59:31 PM »
I'm confused, this trick obviously doesn't work. Why are people arguing about it?
I sense egos, young padawan.

I understand I was really hazy two nights ago, but my glance through seems to indicate no one disagreed with my analysis on the vying interpretations. Since this is not a semantic interpretational problem ("wild shape class feature" =? "wild shape" via template, etc) but rather one of the mechanical abilities of the feat, perhaps this should belong in the 'you break it you buy it' section.

That way - probably - no one can say (after they follow the OP's understanding, as I think I do) that this trick is unfair. After the skewed interpretation, it functions. However that interpretation is a mechanical one that goes into well-established TO territory, imo.
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #97 on: February 19, 2011, 03:22:50 PM »
Right you are. Is there a method by which I can move this to the TO board?

EDIT: The topic is being coped over to there, where we can all safely optimize without fear of books being thrown at us.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 02:37:14 PM by Barbarossa »