Author Topic: Optimization model  (Read 12752 times)

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Ikeren

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2011, 03:32:47 PM »
Didn't both reading the off topic rants.


But why I optimize:

1) Making silly or weak things workable (Arcane Duelist, Duskblade/Jade Pheonix Mage, Fochlucan Lyracist using Ur-Priest and Sublime chord).
2) To help the party: Party could use X (Buffer, healer, caster, item crafter, tank, what have you)
3) To have fun; I enjoy the act of researching and building a good character.
4) So that the DM can use a wider range of powers and not be worried. I'm DMing a campaign with some squishy characters and at 8th level I have to be careful throwing CR 5's at them.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2011, 03:45:59 PM »

Strangely well said Sunic.  :clap Autism and domestic abuse comparisions don't belong here.

The funny thing is Whisper, you can't and don't need to justify why you like something. I honestly couldn't tell you why I enjoy RPGs. I probably like D&D because I hate Palladium and White Wolf so much in comparision, and am at the age where learning a new complex system isn't fun. I can gripe about all the things D&D gets wrong, but being human, I don't rave about the things it got right. Which it did quite a bit.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2011, 06:12:53 PM »
What I want to know is why the hell did that one get deleted? I didn't even smite him that hard.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2011, 10:35:41 AM »
What I want to know is why the hell did that one get deleted? I didn't even smite him that hard.
I don't know.  It didn't seem that bad to me, either.  Maybe I'm biased because I agreed.
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Prime32

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2011, 11:29:32 AM »
This post is still here. If there was another post it must have been deleted quickly.
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The tier system in a nutshell:
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veekie

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2011, 11:33:29 AM »
Off topic, and contributing to an ongoing argument, I guess.
But, ultimately, CO is to me, enabling concepts. I learned this while trying to make TWF work for the first time.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2011, 12:36:40 PM »
But, ultimately, CO is to me, enabling concepts. I learned this while trying to make TWF work for the first time.
This. I enjoy taking an interesting idea and finding the mechanics to make it work. My gaming group is very anti-optimization and some are rather munchkin. I avoid anything more than having a trick or two up my sleeve for when the DM accidentally throws an appropriate encounter at us or the munchkin types start getting out of hand and need to be put in check. Nothing is quite as fun as stomping a mud hole in a character that is nothing but cheating and making rules up with a perfectly legit build.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2011, 12:47:43 PM »
Nevermind. Was thinking of something else.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Lifat

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2011, 09:58:15 PM »
I know I'm revivifying this thread but I had to get my two cents in.

First of. I'm kind of new to optimizing myself. Previously I couldn't  be bothered and neither could noone else in the groups I've been playing in. The newest group I'm in does have a powergamer or two and the DM is someone that can handle it so I'm trying my best to optimize my character starting of in tier 2.
Powergaming for raw stats still seem kind of pointless to me, but powergaming and keeping it within the spirit of a certain person is fun.

@whisper: We shouldn't have to defend D&D to you on this forum. It seems to me that you are using a lot of energy trying to make people who don't really care about you (read: this forums members) tell you why you should keep playing d&d. If you are so unhappy with it I suggest you use all that energy to talk to the gaming group you are in. Don't do it by breaking/bending the rules. Just sit down and try and have a talk with them about it.
On your wife abusal analogy: I suggest using your own analogy that the rest of us are masochists and actually like it (thus meaning it isn't abuse) and that YOU are the one being abused because YOU are the one going back to it over and over again without really enjoying it.
On your aspergers syndrome comment: Come on. Everyone can see that that was trolling. And you didn't even try to hide it.

Whisper

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2011, 06:29:21 AM »
I know I'm revivifying this thread but I had to get my two cents in.

@whisper: We shouldn't have to defend D&D to you on this forum.

And you don't. You were the one who "had" to get your two cents in. I did not compel you.

Quote
It seems to me that you are using a lot of energy trying to make people who don't really care about you (read: this forums members) tell you why you should keep playing d&d. If you are so unhappy with it I suggest you use all that energy to talk to the gaming group you are in. Don't do it by breaking/bending the rules. Just sit down and try and have a talk with them about it.

Unhappy isn't the word I'd use. I'm not unhappy. I like gaming. What I am is an engineer, both by trade and by inclination. Which means I am not unhappy, but frustrated. Someone is waving a deeply flawed design in front of my nose every week. My fingers itch to fix it, or replace it with something better.

Quote
On your wife abusal analogy: I suggest using your own analogy that the rest of us are masochists and actually like it (thus meaning it isn't abuse) and that YOU are the one being abused because YOU are the one going back to it over and over again without really enjoying it.

You fail to understand both my analogy, and how domestic abuse (not wife abuse, it happens to both genders) works.

Victims of domestic abuse are not masochists. They do not enjoy being hit or denigrated. But they believe that no better options are available, and that they deserve the abuse. They think it is their fault. This is why they will not only stay in these relationships, but vigorously defend their abusers against outside criticism. They think the abuse is the price of being in a relationship at all.

Every D&D player knows what sucks about D&D, if they can do math, and care enough to read the rules, and understand their implications. But they regard all this suckage as the ticket fee to ride the train at all.

I've never heard anyone even try to claim that AC works as designed, or that crafting system isn't broken, or that melee classes aren't hopelessly feeble compared to everything else. Even the most ardent D&D fan doesn't bother to defend their system on this and a score of other, similar, points. But they regard it as inevitable. Shrug your shoulders and put up with it.

Or worse yet, they blame themselves. "If only we poor sinners didn't rape the system by DMM persisting Divine Power", "if we buff the fighters instead of casting Solid Fog/Silence/Black Tentacles, they could feel like they were contributing"... "If only we were to do the game designers' jobs for them, and figure out which parts of the game aren't horribly unbalanced, and play those"...

It reads to the observer like a sort of Stockholm Syndrome.

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2011, 04:40:45 PM »
But, ultimately, CO is to me, enabling concepts. I learned this while trying to make TWF work for the first time.
-SNIP-I avoid anything more than having a trick or two up my sleeve for when the DM accidentally throws an appropriate encounter at us or the munchkin types start getting out of hand and need to be put in check.-SNIP-
Concepts.  Sometimes concepts lead to optimization (I wanna play a Jedi!  Hmm, Abjurant Champion works,) and sometimes optimization leads to concepts (rainbow weaversnake wants to be the best, be first, make a new discovery in magic, etc)
http://www.atomicsockmonkey.com/freebies/di/pdq-core.pdf  The smallest, shortest, simplest ruleset of any RPG I've ever seen.  If 3.5 is too complex and you don't like 4.0, try this.  It has very few rules and is just short of freeform.

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2011, 08:31:47 PM »
What does that sound like to you?
The last gasp of an insignificant insect.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 08:39:31 PM by Solo »

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Kajhera

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2011, 09:16:05 PM »
<double post>
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 09:23:26 PM by Kajhera »

Kajhera

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2011, 09:16:42 PM »
I know I'm revivifying this thread but I had to get my two cents in.

@whisper: We shouldn't have to defend D&D to you on this forum.

And you don't. You were the one who "had" to get your two cents in. I did not compel you.

Quote
It seems to me that you are using a lot of energy trying to make people who don't really care about you (read: this forums members) tell you why you should keep playing d&d. If you are so unhappy with it I suggest you use all that energy to talk to the gaming group you are in. Don't do it by breaking/bending the rules. Just sit down and try and have a talk with them about it.

Unhappy isn't the word I'd use. I'm not unhappy. I like gaming. What I am is an engineer, both by trade and by inclination. Which means I am not unhappy, but frustrated. Someone is waving a deeply flawed design in front of my nose every week. My fingers itch to fix it, or replace it with something better.

Quote
On your wife abusal analogy: I suggest using your own analogy that the rest of us are masochists and actually like it (thus meaning it isn't abuse) and that YOU are the one being abused because YOU are the one going back to it over and over again without really enjoying it.

You fail to understand both my analogy, and how domestic abuse (not wife abuse, it happens to both genders) works.

Victims of domestic abuse are not masochists. They do not enjoy being hit or denigrated. But they believe that no better options are available, and that they deserve the abuse. They think it is their fault. This is why they will not only stay in these relationships, but vigorously defend their abusers against outside criticism. They think the abuse is the price of being in a relationship at all.

Every D&D player knows what sucks about D&D, if they can do math, and care enough to read the rules, and understand their implications. But they regard all this suckage as the ticket fee to ride the train at all.

I've never heard anyone even try to claim that AC works as designed, or that crafting system isn't broken, or that melee classes aren't hopelessly feeble compared to everything else. Even the most ardent D&D fan doesn't bother to defend their system on this and a score of other, similar, points. But they regard it as inevitable. Shrug your shoulders and put up with it.

Or worse yet, they blame themselves. "If only we poor sinners didn't rape the system by DMM persisting Divine Power", "if we buff the fighters instead of casting Solid Fog/Silence/Black Tentacles, they could feel like they were contributing"... "If only we were to do the game designers' jobs for them, and figure out which parts of the game aren't horribly unbalanced, and play those"...

It reads to the observer like a sort of Stockholm Syndrome.


Many of us play in heavily houseruled games that mitigate the issues we note into a system where we don't care about the lingering flaws. Solving the problems with D&D is not anything particularly new, or uncommon. What players are you addressing exactly who don't do anything about it and simply suffer the flaws? I may compromise with my fellow players regarding what our collective vision of our adaptation of the system should be, but that can hardly be equated to abuse.

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2011, 10:57:27 PM »
Stop feeding the troll.
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Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

Kajhera

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2011, 11:59:15 PM »
Stop feeding the troll.

If I cut off pieces of its limbs without feeding it, it will starve to death and then where will I be for spell components?

Wait, wrong troll.

Whisper

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2011, 12:55:19 AM »
Many of us play in heavily houseruled games that mitigate the issues we note into a system where we don't care about the lingering flaws. Solving the problems with D&D is not anything particularly new, or uncommon.

Heavy houseruling can indeed solve many of D&D's problems.

But this does not excuse the designers. It's not the players' job to fix the design. IF they wish to do so, good for them, but if they say that D&D is not a bad design, because it's fixable... well, Stockholm Syndrome.

I don't think it's unrealistic or demanding to expect a system to work out of the box, even if you wish to customize it.

If I want a turbo on my Cayman S, I have to drop some cash on aftermarket kits. That's my responsibility. But if Porsche sells me something without wheels (or brakes), I'm going to get mad. And if someone says "You can fit wheels yourself", my response is going to be something like "That's not the point.".


Quote
What players are you addressing exactly who don't do anything about it and simply suffer the flaws? I may compromise with my fellow players regarding what our collective vision of our adaptation of the system should be, but that can hardly be equated to abuse.

Are you not entirely aware of how analogies work? I'm not "equating" it to domestic abuse. I'm pointing out similar mechanisms and psychological dynamics. Who cares how bad something is? What's important is how it works.

People blame the players for flaws in the system. That's blaming the victim.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2011, 05:31:47 AM »
Heavy houseruling can indeed solve many of D&D's problems.

I wouldn't say solve. Patch, yes. There will still be exploits and problems, as with any system (not just gaming, but systems as a whole).

We can never smooth everything out to the point where everyone can enjoy the system, nor can we remove all of the exploits. But we can tweak it until some of us enjoy our little portions.

Quote
But this does not excuse the designers. It's not the players' job to fix the design.

Gonna say this nice and loud:

THE DEVELOPERS HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS SYSTEM WORKS, AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO REPAIR IT.

Clarification: That much emphasis isn't really aimed at you. I'm putting that there so others who read this thread will see it ASAP.

WotC will never understand DnD to the extent that the Min-Max community does. Even someone like Richard Berlew does not have that kind of grasp of the rules (despite being somewhat familiar with our community; GiantITP isn't as dedicated as BG is, and we are a step below places like TGD).

Quote
People blame the players for flaws in the system. That's blaming the victim.

To be fair, we are at least partially responsible for some of the flaws. I like to call that "User Error" though.


Now please drop the abuse analogy. It is in very poor taste. You need to either come up with something less offensive or cross another four dozen lines and make it funny. That's the main reason people are hating on you.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2011, 06:11:55 AM »
Now please drop the abuse analogy. It is in very poor taste... That's the main reason people are hating on you.

Well that and the fact that he repeatedly suggests it's their fault his "analogy" isn't working. People tend to get upset if you keep telling them the problem is that THEY'RE the stupid ones.

The automotive thing worked a lot better.
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veekie

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2011, 09:33:27 AM »
Quote
THE DEVELOPERS HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS SYSTEM WORKS, AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO REPAIR IT.
This cannot be overemphasized, and to tell the truth, neither do we share a common enough view of HOW it should be fixed to make a better game, and where the line of 'too much change' falls.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."