Author Topic: Optimization model  (Read 12751 times)

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Shadeseraph

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Optimization model
« on: February 13, 2011, 09:44:08 PM »
Well, as far as I have seen, many people can't understand why someone would like optimizing. Most of the time, optimization is shuned by a lot of people, and seen as douchebaggery and wanting to feel superior. Most of the attacks against optimization revolve around three aspects which, as far as I can see, only one of them is really acceptable in itself against optimization as a whole.

First one is related to the character building process, and the idea that an optimized character is intrinsically worse in inmersion and roleplaying than a non optimized character. We have disproved this time and again with things like the Stormwind Fallacy and similar ideas.

Another is related to the fact that optimization is only a way to play this game we call D&D. In a group where optimization is not intended to be used, an optimizer forcing his own paradigm will be disruptive to the game. In a sense, the group and the optimizer aren't playing the same game, and both should talk in order to find a solution. It may be the optimizer setting aside his ways for any game with said group, the optimizer leaving the group in search for a more suitable group for his gaming needs, or the group finding a middle ground. The same can be said about a group of optimizers, in which a non-optimizer will be disruptive in the same way. This is, in my opinion,  a valid point, although it's not a problem intrinsical to optimization, but to different gamestyles altogether.

The third attack, and the one I'll be focusing on this thread, is the assumed goal of an optimizer by non-optimizers. Most people I know who are into roleplaying games but aren't optimizers assume every optimizer is an egotist bastard who only wants to get the spotlight and enlarge his own ego by showing anyone else how powerful is his di... *ahem* character. Of course, it isn't like there aren't people like that, and because they are usually the loudest group, many people tends to group all min/maxers with them, including optimizers with far more reasonable ideas in mind.

In fact, in my experience, optimizers have a wide range of reasons to optimize, and that shows in the kind of optimizing they do. As a thought experiment, I'd like to point the different reasons to optimize, or, in other words, the different models of optimization one can do. As far as I know, I've found most peopled to stand for the following models:

-Powergaming. This is the expected "optimizer". The kind of person who uses min/maxing to fap to his own "awesomeness", and have the idea that you can win in D&D. Not win the game as a whole, but win against the DM and the other players. It's usually asumed to be a kid. The term Powergamer is used to define these if they know the rules and work by them. Else, they usually are called munchkins, if they fail and try to cheat.

-Theoretical Optimizer: This is the kind of optimizer who likes crunching numbers for the sake of theoretical thought. It's not the playability of a character that matters, but the achievment of goals within a given idea. This kind of optimizing, in itself, can be further broken in cathegories, I think. For example:

 > Perfectionism: Some people aren't happy unless the character they are creating is the best he can be. This is different than the powergaming in that the value of optimization is not in the ability it grants to fare better than other players. This is the OCD kind of optimization, where one is unhappy unless the character, by its own merits, is the best it can be, usually within a set of constrains accepted and assumed by the optimizer. Unless every feat and rank is accounted for and the optimizer feels that they appropiately contribute to the build, he isn't happy.
 > System breakability: As in RL physics, these kind of optimizers like to challenge the system, by trying its limits and its incongruences. This is the standard TO we know. The goal here isn't to break a game, but to stretch the system for the thought experiment it proves to be.
 > System study: These people like trying to figure which kind of game the system, as is, simulates. Not the intended game, where the DM softens the most troublesome parts and the game runs depending on DMs fiat, but a game where a party finds a variable set of challenges not necesarilly adapted to the group. This branch of thought is the one from which we know that the system, as is, doesn't support many classes decently, such as the fighter or the monk.

-Concept enabling: This is the kind of optimization which intends to make certain character concepts which aren't well supported by the game mechanics playable without the need of DM cuddling. It does not necessarilly target for the most powerful character in a given campaign, but instead tries to be able to contribute with an intrinsically gimped character. The example would be someone trying to play something akin a dragon. The existing rules don't support it well enough for what a dragon is supposedly be able to do, and the player is left to transform that into a competent character able to fight shoulder with shoulder with everyone else.

-Campaign Optimization: This is the kind of optimization which actively happens when the players play in a game world derived from the system study - That is, a game world where the DM is basically a referee between the players and the system, who organizes the plot, but leaves them to the mercy of the system, using the abilities the enemies have without pulling any punches.

-Concept optimization: Similar to Prefectionism, but usually for characters intended to be played. Usually revolves around an idea, concept or role, such as charging, in which the optimizer wants to shine. Instead of just creating the Best Character Evah, the player chooses a concept and optimizes it to hell, leaving other roles or concepts to be filled by the rest of the players.

Well, I'm pretty sure there are a lot more types of optimizers, and optimization models, but right now tohse are the ones I can think of. Maybe tomorrow I'll be awake enough to be able to think clearly.

Personally, I'd think that I'm fundamentally a concept enabler / concept optimizer. Because my group is mostly one without optimizers, and because I like thinking strange characters, I end with this kind of model most of the time, except when I'm designing theoretical characters for fun. I like it a lot, but everyone has its own share of experiences and ideas. So, now I ask you. What do you think about these? Do you think these models aren't correct? Maybe there are more models out there (I'm sure there are, I'm pretty sleepy right now). Which kind of model do you think describes you?

Well, thoughts?
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Midnight_v

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2011, 10:10:02 PM »
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Whisper

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2011, 07:14:11 AM »
I hold D&D in complete contempt, and I want to persuade people to stop playing it in favour of non-broken RPGs.

I need to understand just how it is broken, so I can persuade people (and my gaming group specifically) to play something else, and so I can help that something else avoid the same pitfalls. That's why I'm here.

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2011, 10:28:27 AM »
I'm somewhat of a concept optimizer/studier.  I've never been good with TO, but that's partially because I don't natively think that way.  I find it interesting to read, but I don't really go out searching for ways to break the game.

I'm not sure if I could truly call myself a power gamer or not.  I want any PC I make to be competent, but not to the detriment of the game or anyone else's fun.  Other than that, I do like studying the system.  I really like books on game theory in general, so naturally, I'm drawn to this.
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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 10:46:57 AM »
I like to make concepts that don't work so well as the game rules allow by default, so I have to work my ass off to make it work somehow(the cure is ultimately dipping casting in almost all the cases).
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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 11:23:59 AM »
Generally I optimize my characters for two reasons.

1) I have a fluff concept and I want to actually be able to mechanically meet the fluff.

2) I usually want my character to survive so that it can further develop.

Though, honestly recently I find myself also building character ideas around various mechanical abilites/possibilities as well. 

In the beginning for me Optimization was about staying alive and doing well in the face of encounters I found to be over the top, I called it Defensive Optimization (thought it wasn't all about optimizing defense).
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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 01:16:44 PM »
I hold D&D in complete contempt, and I want to persuade people to stop playing it in favour of non-broken RPGs.

I need to understand just how it is broken, so I can persuade people (and my gaming group specifically) to play something else, and so I can help that something else avoid the same pitfalls. That's why I'm here.
You should try FATAL.

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Kajhera

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 01:27:07 PM »
Hmm...

Powergaming: Yes, sometimes I just want a generally good character who can do neat things. When I'm in the mood for this I'll toss down some dread necromancer / rainbow servant abomination and just have fun with my bizarre, useful (if disjointed) powers. Sometimes these lead into fun concepts and sometimes they are just amusing.

Theoretical Optimizer: Indeed, crunching numbers is fun. Putting together a half-elf warlock/marshal/binder/half-elf paragon etc. for the largest possible diplomacy bonus against seafaring undead red dragons is fun.
>Perfectionism: See aforementioned half-elf. If a feat doesn't give a bonus or use for diplomacy (or qualify for it) what the heck is it doing on a theoretical diplomancer build?
>System breakability: Sure, this is fun to explore.
>System study: Very useful realm of research, if you can call it that.

Concept Enabling: I go for this a fair bit. Monsters, generally, I'll call in homebrew; but otherwise it's fun to figure out how an idea might work (and puzzling how often the answer is psionics). There are enough refluffable classes out there to cover a lot of ideas quite well; but their starting fluff may be deceptive as to what would work best for the concept.

Campaign Optimization: Don't do this one quite as often, but do incorporate it to some extent.

Concept Optimization: But of course. Do what you do, do it well, and do it in the fashion you visualize. I like doing that. I suppose I'll have to pick this as my favorite.

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 01:29:18 PM »
I hold D&D in complete contempt, and I want to persuade people to stop playing it in favour of non-broken RPGs.

I need to understand just how it is broken, so I can persuade people (and my gaming group specifically) to play something else, and so I can help that something else avoid the same pitfalls. That's why I'm here.
You should try FATAL.
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SeekingKnight

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 02:37:33 PM »
I hold D&D in complete contempt, and I want to persuade people to stop playing it in favour of non-broken RPGs.

I need to understand just how it is broken, so I can persuade people (and my gaming group specifically) to play something else, and so I can help that something else avoid the same pitfalls. That's why I'm here.

So you want to convince people who love the game to leave it.  Any RPG can be broken.  White Wolf via the mechanics to resolve actions.  Shadowrun due to playing certain concepts mean solo games.  Cyberpunk 2020 same deal.  I honestly think that the best game for you Whisper is free form.  That way it is about the story and the mechanics take a back seat.

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2011, 02:43:41 PM »
I rather like taking off the wall races and then trying to make workable characters out of them, I absolutely LOVE high ECL races. Give me the chance to play a nymph, succubus or maug and I will jump right into it.

Plus some have nice IP proofing features, like Charisma to AC and Saves or Construct immunities to just about everything that is actually threatening.

Bonus points for making a Maug Paladin for both. :D

« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 02:45:32 PM by Littha »

SeekingKnight

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2011, 03:00:14 PM »
To contribute to the thread.  I optimize because I love math and numbers.  I also love seeing concepts that can be wacky.  I also want to help contribute to the party in some way that is more then swinging a pointed stick at the air in a vain hope to hit.

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2011, 03:10:46 PM »
To contribute to the thread.  I optimize because I love math and numbers.  I also love seeing concepts that can be wacky.  I also want to help contribute to the party in some way that is more then swinging a pointed stick at the air in a vain hope to hit.
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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2011, 03:11:16 PM »
I hold D&D in complete contempt, and I want to persuade people to stop playing it in favour of non-broken RPGs.

I need to understand just how it is broken, so I can persuade people (and my gaming group specifically) to play something else, and so I can help that something else avoid the same pitfalls. That's why I'm here.
You should try FATAL.
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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 03:32:01 PM »
I hold D&D in complete contempt, and I want to persuade people to stop playing it in favour of non-broken RPGs.

I need to understand just how it is broken, so I can persuade people (and my gaming group specifically) to play something else, and so I can help that something else avoid the same pitfalls. That's why I'm here.

So you want to convince people who love the game to leave it.  Any RPG can be broken.  White Wolf via the mechanics to resolve actions.  Shadowrun due to playing certain concepts mean solo games.  Cyberpunk 2020 same deal.  I honestly think that the best game for you Whisper is free form.  That way it is about the story and the mechanics take a back seat.

Right. In the end, the more rules a system has, the higher the probability of finding a loophole becomes. DnD happens to have one of the largest rule sets there is, thus there are proportionately more tricks to find. That doesn't make it a bad system, per say, it just means you need to select specific rules you are willing to work with.


Bad systems are games like FATAL. DnD isn't a bad system, it just has a lot of rules (EXCEPTION: Epic levels are horrid).


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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2011, 03:33:30 PM »
FATAL mechanics are supposedly ok and definately not broken, though you can break things like your anal sphincter.

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Whisper

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2011, 05:54:06 PM »
I hold D&D in complete contempt, and I want to persuade people to stop playing it in favour of non-broken RPGs.

I need to understand just how it is broken, so I can persuade people (and my gaming group specifically) to play something else, and so I can help that something else avoid the same pitfalls. That's why I'm here.

So you want to convince people who love the game to leave it. 

In the same way that I wish to convince victims of domestic abuse to leave someone they love.

It's possible to have a good relationship, with everything you love about D&D, minus all the pain.

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Any RPG can be broken.

That doesn't make them all the same.

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  I honestly think that the best game for you Whisper is free form.  That way it is about the story and the mechanics take a back seat.

You've confused contempt for bad mechanics with contempt for mechanics.

SeekingKnight

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2011, 06:00:11 PM »
You know what Whisper have it your way.  Why you are on a D&D type forum to get other to play another game is beyond me.  As I said in other threads play what you like but don't complain about a game you are playing if you chose to be in it.  Btw seriously..compairing D&D to domestic violence is not cool, seriously bad anaology.  Wow...just wow

Whisper

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2011, 06:11:09 PM »
You know what Whisper have it your way.

I always do.

Quote
Why you are on a D&D type forum to get other to play another game is beyond me.

Along with quite a few other things, I suspect.

I don't care what *you* play. I have a gaming group. I like them, I like gaming with them, I like gaming. I don't like what we play. I want to persuade them to play something else. I want to learn all D&D's weaknesses, so I can make it clear by example just how broken the game is... and get them to play something else.

Quote
Btw seriously..compairing D&D to domestic violence is not cool, seriously bad anaology.  Wow...just wow

Grow a thicker skin.

When people keep coming back to someone or something that keeps hurting them, and they blame themselves, what do you think I'm going to say?

SeekingKnight

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Re: Optimization model
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 06:21:55 PM »
It is not thin skin it is you choosing poor taste.   I am not side tracking this thread anymore.  I like 3.5, I like WoD, I like BESM, I like Shadowrun. I like Star Wars SAGA, hell I love free form.  I play 3.5 because to me it is a system that allows for a lot of options.  Second edition, to me, was more flavorful in some aspects but broken in others.  4th edition looks like fun and I am willing to try it.  But to me D&D is 3.5 just as to others D&D is 2nd edtion or even 1st.