Author Topic: A Guide to Proper Scouting  (Read 34347 times)

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2011, 10:28:06 PM »
JaronK: just so you know, Mindsight and Life Sense can both be taken by psicrystals, since they both have access to telepathy and have no Con scores, and they can take Darkstalker as well.

Wow, and all this time I thought the requirement was "undead."  But you're right, it's "no con score."  That's awfully handy.

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Psicrystals make excellent scouts and scouting buddies.

Drat, now I have to go put a bunch of psionic classes in there.

JaronK
Lifesense and Mind Sight also help the psicrystal overcome the range deficits of its sensory abilities.

There's a seriously major reason why psicrystals are vastly superior to familiars in the majority of cases. And in a lot of cases, Improved Familiars as well.
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Psithief

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2011, 11:12:29 PM »
Not all DMs will agree that Telepathic Speech (Ex) will substitute for Telepathy (Su).

Also, lifesense requires Charisma 13, not something Psicrystals typically have. Even if they did, they can't see OR hear past 40ft, so they can't SEE the light very well! Perhaps you could say they can guess the direction, but it should be FAR less useful past 40ft.

Finally, "Manual of the Plains"? It's "Planes".
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 11:14:54 PM by Psithief »

Lycanthromancer

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2011, 11:19:43 PM »
Not all DMs will agree that Telepathic Speech (Ex) will substitute for Telepathy (Su).

Also, lifesense requires Charisma 13, not something Psicrystals typically have. Even if they did, they can't see OR hear past 40ft, so they can't SEE the light very well! Perhaps you could say they can guess the direction, but it should be FAR less useful past 40ft.

Finally, "Manual of the Plains"? It's "Planes".
You can give your psicrystal Cha 13, either through level-ups or through other means. And you're probably right about the limitations of Lifesense for a psicrystal, although it does seem that Lifesense allows a psicrystal to view things beyond 40'.

Depends on the DM, I suppose.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Shiki

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2011, 03:53:36 AM »
Depends on if the person likes imcompetence, or stupid. Undeads/Constructs with no "eyes" doesn't benefit from having Lifesense as a feat. Also, Telepathic Speech isn't a "limited form of telepathy" which is still legit Telepathy, so forget Mindsight.

I'm guessing this is only a matter of opinion, and you (Psithief) can clearly see that I see yours as stupid (I hope), but I digress. I'll leave it at that...
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JaronK

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2011, 09:11:26 AM »
Eyes have nothing to do with vision.  You can see normally if the rules say you can.  In fact, all creatures by default can see normally unless specifically called out as blind or otherwise deficient.  In the case of undead without eyes, they can see normally.  In the case of a psicrystal, they have a limit to their visual range but no other limitations... they can still see light just fine.

JaronK

Psithief

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2011, 11:45:35 AM »
Eyes have nothing to do with vision.  You can see normally if the rules say you can.  In fact, all creatures by default can see normally unless specifically called out as blind or otherwise deficient.  In the case of undead without eyes, they can see normally.  In the case of a psicrystal, they have a limit to their visual range but no other limitations... they can still see light just fine.

JaronK

The rules don't say a psicrystal can see normally, but we aren't used to having rules for a limited sight range that detects visible light, are we? Sight doesn't have arbitrary limits like that in the real world. I suppose every DM has to come up with their own interpretation of what a 40' limit on sight means. Mine is that a psicrystal cannot see any reflected light from squares outside the 40ft. radius, allowing a 13 Cha psicrystal with lifesense the ability to guess the direction of a living creature (Medium, for example) 60ft. away, but lacking the capability to pinpoint it to a specific 5ft. square until it comes within 40ft.
I imagine the difference can be alluded to thusly. You're in a dark room and someone shines a green laser directly into your eye. You can turn and avoid the laser, thus determining its direction, but you can't tell how far the source of the laser is just by its direction.

I really think these handbooks need to have little superscript note references for edge cases that have a lot of different interpretations. That's all I'm saying.

JaronK

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2011, 10:42:52 AM »
The rules don't say a psicrystal can see normally,

Acutally, they do.  All creatures can see normally unless specifically called out as not doing so. 

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but we aren't used to having rules for a limited sight range that detects visible light, are we?

Haunt Shift does the same thing.  Same is true for Intelligent items (they start at 30' vision, and the best ones have 120').  It's perfectly normal vision, but only within a set range.

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Sight doesn't have arbitrary limits like that in the real world.

You just murdered a catgirl! 

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I suppose every DM has to come up with their own interpretation of what a 40' limit on sight means.

RAW, it's completely normal vision of everything with 40'.  Everything outside of 40' cannot be detected by vision at all.

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Mine is that a psicrystal cannot see any reflected light from squares outside the 40ft. radius, allowing a 13 Cha psicrystal with lifesense the ability to guess the direction of a living creature (Medium, for example) 60ft. away, but lacking the capability to pinpoint it to a specific 5ft. square until it comes within 40ft.

Roughly, that's correct.  It would know there's a lightsource out there (because it can see the light that's lighting up squares within 40') but it couldn't actually see whatever the light is coming from.  It could make an educated guess based on the edge of the illuminated area, but in a corridor it wouldn't know the difference between a Medium critter that's 80 feet away and a Large critter that's 140' away (at least via vision).

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I imagine the difference can be alluded to thusly. You're in a dark room and someone shines a green laser directly into your eye. You can turn and avoid the laser, thus determining its direction, but you can't tell how far the source of the laser is just by its direction.

I agree. 

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I really think these handbooks need to have little superscript note references for edge cases that have a lot of different interpretations. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, absolutely.  The same note should be made for Haunt Shifted items, which have the same issue (they can see 60'). 

JaronK

SeekingKnight

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2011, 01:01:27 PM »
Hello all.  I have found something interesting as I was doing research for a hack and slash game I am in.  Going to Faiths of Eberron on page 84 there is a PrC called Thief of Life (I can be wrong as the book is not in front of me so pardon on the name).  It is a very interesting class as it offers something usually reserved for undead characters that costs them a feat.  The entry requirements are roughly, four ranks in Heal and Knowledge Arcana, two ranks in Knowledge Religion (I may have switch the knowledges in terms of ranks but I know it is just these two for sure), sneak attack 2d6, humanoid or monsterous humanois, as well as a worshiper of Vol.   So nothing to crazy for requirements.  The class goes for ten levels but I suggest only going four.  At levels 2, 6, 10 one gains a d6 to sneak attack up to 3d6.  The class also gains things if a equal level or higher CR baddie is killed by sneak attack.  Things like temp hit points, immunity to fatigue and such, and even no aging penalties for a year.  The class also has things like immunity to negative energy, fear, and something else.  The kicker is this, every odd level starting from 1 a character gains lifesense of five feet.  So by ninth level you have it at 25 feet.  Not to shabby and felt that scouting classes may find this info useful.

Ciao

veekie

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2011, 04:49:40 PM »
Bit of a tiny radius for scouting, methinks, since part of the principle is you don't get within 25ft of an enemy as you'd fall within an assload of special senses and magical sensing radii.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2011, 06:36:52 PM »
Where does one find Vecna Blooded btw? Cause that sounds like a great catch.

Monster Manual 5 under the God-Blooded templates.

Note that pretty much all of the other God-Blooded examples fucking suck, but there's potential there because it's one of the places where WotC deliberately didn't complete their work, opting instead to encourage DMs to build their own material.
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SeekingKnight

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2011, 05:30:19 PM »
Moshi moshi!!  I found another PrC that may aid in scouting.  It is the Five Nations Eberron book.  The PrC is Dark Lantern.  It requires four ranks each in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive, a +5 BAB, being a Breland citizen as well as not being affiliated with a religion.  The last two is fluff that can be changed.  The yumminess belongs to the third level ability to have non-detection on all the time.  So it helps with both being IP proofed as well as scouting.

Bozwevial

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2011, 07:41:12 PM »
Moshi moshi!!  I found another PrC that may aid in scouting.  It is the Five Nations Eberron book.  The PrC is Dark Lantern.  It requires four ranks each in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive, a +5 BAB, being a Breland citizen as well as not being affiliated with a religion.  The last two is fluff that can be changed.  The yumminess belongs to the third level ability to have non-detection on all the time.  So it helps with both being IP proofed as well as scouting.
Do note that the Nondetection effectively has a CL equal to your dark lantern level, meaning that if you want it to stay relevant you have to stay in the class.

Psithief

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2011, 09:23:06 AM »
You just murdered a catgirl!

Good! Damn felines.

Shiki

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2011, 11:17:21 AM »
You just murdered a catgirl!

Good! Damn felines.

May you die in a hurricane, you.
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nijineko

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2011, 12:52:02 PM »
You just murdered a catgirl!
Good! Damn felines.

i do not know what experiences you have had in the past with felines, but i assure you that not all felines are worth your enmity. i must take somewhat exception to that broad an unqualified remark.
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Bozwevial

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2011, 04:44:22 PM »
You just murdered a catgirl!

Good! Damn felines.
bhu would like to have a word with you. :P

snakeman830

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2011, 04:58:01 PM »
You just murdered a catgirl!

Good! Damn felines.
bhu would like to have a word with you. :P
He's not the only one... :p
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2011, 06:38:30 PM »
Hey, don't look at me. I'm a son of a bitch, remember?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2011, 01:19:05 AM »
There is a metamagic feat that helps with the whole "not being detected" thing.

Insidious Magic. Gotta love it.
That's one of the ones you get for free with Shadow Adept 1 also, isn't it? Pretty nice, now that I look at it again...
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JaronK

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Re: A Guide to Proper Scouting
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2011, 05:44:23 AM »
It took until the end of that paragraph for me to realize the utility of that.  Nice for caster types, certainly.

JaronK
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 10:05:37 AM by JaronK »