Author Topic: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?  (Read 4431 times)

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Prime32

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How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« on: February 12, 2011, 10:55:19 PM »
So usually Reaping Mauler is ignored because it requires Clever Wrestling - that feat disappears if you increase in size, thus removing your class features. However, the Leviathan Hunter PrC was recently pointed out to me. (thank you, Starbuck_II of GitP)

Quote from: Stormwrack p61
Clever Wrestling: You face many creatures capable of crushing you in their tentacles, claws, or teeth. To better resist such attacks, you gain Clever Wrestling (see page 92) as a bonus feat at 3rd level, even if you would not otherwise qualify for the feat.
So you can take levels in Reaping Mauler without having to worry about that. Is it worth it now?

For reference, Leviathan Hunter is a d10/full BAB/good Fort class and the prereqs are:
Quote
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Feats: Iron Will, Track.
Skills: Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks.
Special: Favored enemy (aberrations, animals, dragons, or
magical beasts).
One-level ranger dip with Otyugh Hole covers it.

EDIT: Lv5 still seems pointless, since if you've already rendered your opponent unconscious it would be faster to let go and coup-de-grace. Sleeper Lock has a low DC, but that could be increased with Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster/bloodlines (or Ability Focus).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 11:19:40 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2011, 11:26:31 PM »
As you said, 4 levels at best.  The problem now becomes 5 levels to enter Leviathan Hunter and 3 levels to get no-restrictions Clever Wrestling.  This means Reaping Mauler comes on the scene 4 levels after the first Freedom of Movement effects are out there, which all-but-completely invalidates them.

Sure, it's not weird for mages to defeat beatsticks, but Grappling fails uncannily bad.

Prime32

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2011, 11:32:35 PM »
As you said, 4 levels at best.  The problem now becomes 5 levels to enter Leviathan Hunter and 3 levels to get no-restrictions Clever Wrestling.  This means Reaping Mauler comes on the scene 4 levels after the first Freedom of Movement effects are out there, which all-but-completely invalidates them.

Sure, it's not weird for mages to defeat beatsticks, but Grappling fails uncannily bad.
Goliath (LA bought off) Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Warblade 3/Leviathan Hunter 3/Reaping Mauler 3/Legacy champion 9 with access to antimagic?
Sleeper lock DC: 20+Wis

Or trade goliath for dragonborn (wings) half-minotaur water orc. Or trade Legacy Champion 9 for Legacy Champion 6/Bloodline 3 for another +1 DC.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 11:52:56 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2011, 11:35:08 PM »
As you said, 4 levels at best.  The problem now becomes 5 levels to enter Leviathan Hunter and 3 levels to get no-restrictions Clever Wrestling.  This means Reaping Mauler comes on the scene 4 levels after the first Freedom of Movement effects are out there, which all-but-completely invalidates them.

Sure, it's not weird for mages to defeat beatsticks, but Grappling fails uncannily bad.
Goliath (LA bought off) Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Warblade 3/Leviathan Hunter 3/Reaping Mauler 3/Legacy champion 9 with access to antimagic?
Maybe if you can apply said antimagic intelligently.  Just casting or activating an item of AMF and trying to run up to the Wizard will never work.

bearsarebrown

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2011, 11:52:33 PM »
I discovered this trick myself a couple months ago. Then I realized that Reaping Mauler still sucks. Grapple is a poor option even when you can regularly succeed all rolls. Let's look at the Reaping Mauler critically.

Imp Grapple: You already have this feat if you want to be a grappler.
Mobility: Who cares? It's a shitty feat. Might be useful for prereqs though.
Adept Wrestling: Embarrassing low bonus. Doesn't hurt I guess. +2? Really?
Counter Grapple: Why are you losing grapple rolls to begin with?
Sleeper Hold: The only thing the class has that doesn't terribly suck. But it's a Fortitude save(monsters best saves) and only 14 + Wisdom. And it takes a full round before it kicks in. Meaning it takes one round to pin the opponent, then one round of waiting. Then it's unconscious on your next turn? I assume you then Coup De Grace but it's still taking you three rounds to kill one person. That's atrocious.
Devastating Grapple: Three rounds? Low save? Fort save? Fuck that. Terrible, just terrible.

The only synergy I could find was getting Imp Grab, the ability to act normally while grappling, that class from Champions of Ruin to coup de grace as a Move action. But at best the only thing Reaping Mauler adds is a way to kill someone after thee round of diddling. If you want to be a grappler use that class from Champions of Ruin and/or Totemist.

Novabomb

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 04:05:18 AM »
Be fair, black blood cultist makes "grappling" useful/
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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 04:51:33 AM »
Be fair, black blood cultist makes "grappling" useful/

Cleric/Totemist/Sapphire Hierarch>>Every other grappler in the game.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 06:11:17 AM »
Be fair, black blood cultist makes "grappling" useful/
That's in Champions of Ruin, right?

@sinfire titan, yes :flutter

Novabomb

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 06:14:06 AM »
Be fair, black blood cultist makes "grappling" useful/

Cleric/Totemist/Sapphire Hierarch>>Every other grappler in the game.

I think your missing the point here.
Your build may be good at grappling, but that does not make grappling a good idea.
BBC8 actually makes "grappling" a worthwhile action because it has the potential to do significant damage on a successful grapple check.

If I misunderstand the tactics of your sapphire hierarch feel free to explain, but please no flames.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 06:42:44 AM »
Be fair, black blood cultist makes "grappling" useful/

Cleric/Totemist/Sapphire Hierarch>>Every other grappler in the game.

I think your missing the point here.
Your build may be good at grappling, but that does not make grappling a good idea.
BBC8 actually makes "grappling" a worthwhile action because it has the potential to do significant damage on a successful grapple check.

If I misunderstand the tactics of your sapphire hierarch feel free to explain, but please no flames.

BBC has 3 natural weapons while raging. Totemist has 4+ (easily 6 or 7). While grappling, you can use natural weapons without penalty (and the enemy is screwed out of some AC). And the Totemist has Constrict (which is very potent when they can't break your grapple at all).

Cleric buffs also make you more dangerous when you don't want to grapple (or don't have a choice in the matter).



Druids are a close second, but their buffs are somewhat lacking in my opinion (there are a couple of really good ones, but the Cleric has more combat-applicable spells).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 06:48:23 AM »
Each time a BBC makes a grapple check he attacks with ALL of his natural attacks. Each iterative attack is your full nature attack routine.

snakeman830

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 08:33:51 AM »
Each time a BBC makes a grapple check he attacks with ALL of his natural attacks. Each iterative attack is your full nature attack routine.
Not just attack, but auto-hit as well.  Power Attack away and watch the damage skyrocket.  If you've got Rend, it gets even nastier.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Maat_Mons

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 08:40:17 AM »
… that class from Champions of Ruin to coup de grace as a Move action.

Interesting, I suppose you could do this:
  • Boots of the Battlecharger: Charge as a standard action
  • Lion Totem Barbarian 1: Full attack at the end of a charge
  • Justiciar 8: Begin grapple and hog-tie opponent as part of full attack
  • Black Blood Cultist 5: Coup de grace hog-tied opponent as move action

Not very impressive for an 18th level character, but it's nice to know it's possible to accomplish this in one round without extra actions. 

snakeman830

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 08:58:19 AM »
One of my favorite grappling builds:

Race doen't matter.  Skarn work well just for more damage, though.

Sorcerer 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Geomancer 7/Barbarian 1/Black Blood Cultist 8  Trade Knowledge Domain for the devotion and take Planning.  Other domain doesn't matter much. 

Feats:

Percocious Apprentice
Track
Improved Unarmed Strike
Persist Spell
DMM (Persist)
Extra Rage
Power Attack

For Drift, you choose the Rake and Gore at 3 and Improved Grab at 4.  All Ley Lines go to Forest terrain for Acorn abuse (probably cast by a party member, but a wand works too).

Persisted Divine Power is a must, with Divine Might to go when you need an extra umph.

When raging, you have a couple of options.  Attack with your claws and bite normally.  If any of them hit, free grapple check.  If you succeed, you get to attack with claw/claw/rend/bite/rake/rake/gore/arm spine/arm spine.  Except, of course, these are all auto-hit.  On their turn, they make a check to escape.  If they fail, they take claw/claw/rend/bite/rake/rake/gore/arm spine/arm spine.  Then, on your next turn, you keep attacking the, making grapple checks to do so.  Each one you succeed on is automatic claw/claw/rend/bite/rake/rake/gore/arm spine/arm spine.

Oh, and you still have 5th level Cleric spells to fall back on should you need them.

Abilities are Str->Con->Wis-> everything else.  Str and Wis can be swapped if necessary, since the former is much easier to boost.  Cha should be at least 12 base
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 06:28:55 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2011, 09:09:26 PM »
  • Boots of the Battlecharger: Charge as a standard action
  • Lion Totem Barbarian 1: Full attack at the end of a charge
  • Justiciar 8: Begin grapple and hog-tie opponent as part of full attack
  • Black Blood Cultist 5: Coup de grace hog-tied opponent as move action
I love this. You know what upsets me? This doesn't work on non-humanoid-ish creatures and RAI vampires can't be coup-de-grace'd even though decapitation does work... Necropolitans and other undead should die when their head goes rolling IMO.
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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2011, 09:18:48 PM »
Each time a BBC makes a grapple check he attacks with ALL of his natural attacks. Each iterative attack is your full nature attack routine.
Not just attack, but auto-hit as well.  Power Attack away and watch the damage skyrocket.  If you've got Rend, it gets even nastier.
The obvious solution: Gestalt them!  :D
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bearsarebrown

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2011, 09:24:49 PM »
  • Boots of the Battlecharger: Charge as a standard action
  • Lion Totem Barbarian 1: Full attack at the end of a charge
  • Justiciar 8: Begin grapple and hog-tie opponent as part of full attack
  • Black Blood Cultist 5: Coup de grace hog-tied opponent as move action
Getting Hustle in there is more reliable then Boots of the Battlecharger I think. But I do like this idea.

wotmaniac

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2011, 03:08:46 AM »
I've always thought that RM had things a little backwards: Imp. Grapple should have been the prereq, and get Clever Wrestling as a 1st level bonus feat "even if you otherwise wouldn't qualify".
Then all their is to do is to base the DCs for Sleeper Hold and Devastating Grapple off of character level instead of class level.

Alas, all that does is allow him to actually be good at grappling.  The next problem to solve is to make grappling actually work while.  The only thing to do with that is to adjust FoM somehow ... :shrug

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Bauglir

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Re: How bad is Reaping Mauler really?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2011, 06:17:32 AM »
  • Boots of the Battlecharger: Charge as a standard action
  • Lion Totem Barbarian 1: Full attack at the end of a charge
  • Justiciar 8: Begin grapple and hog-tie opponent as part of full attack
  • Black Blood Cultist 5: Coup de grace hog-tied opponent as move action
Getting Hustle in there is more reliable then Boots of the Battlecharger I think. But I do like this idea.

If nothing else, the mental image of a dude barreling into somebody and, in the time it takes to hit the ground, tying them up, decapitating the victim, and catching his balance again, is pretty great. Not that that really helps when you're fighting a Colossal monster or something.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.