Author Topic: Your grievances concerning skills  (Read 20756 times)

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Nytemare3701

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Your grievances concerning skills
« on: February 12, 2011, 08:42:48 AM »
I need to know what you as CO members think is wrong with skills as they are now.

I'm working on skill fixes, but it's slow going because I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. I hear relatively few complaints about skills.

Maat_Mons

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2011, 09:20:54 AM »
I don't like how you have to invest ranks in skills to use certain class features.  There's concentration for spellcasting, perform for bardic music, disable device and search for trapfinding, and survival for track (when you get it as a bonus feat).  If it's a premise of the design of a class that you'll put a rank in a skill every level, I think the class should automatically give you a rank in that skill every level. 

I like what Pathfinder did with skills.  They made the difference between class and cross-class skills a consistent 3, instead of 2 at 1st level, 3 at 2nd and 3rd level, and so on up to 12 at 20th level.  I like that anyone can be reasonably good at a skill, even at high level, and without double the investment.  I also like the further consolidation of skills.  Some of the merged skills are acrobatics (balance, jump, tumble), diplomacy (diplomacy, gather information), disable device (disable device, open lock), linguistics (decipher script, forgery, speak language), perception (listen, search, spot), and stealth (hide, move silently). 

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2011, 09:29:55 AM »
Divine Insight... :banghead Etc.
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Nytemare3701

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2011, 10:34:03 AM »
I don't like how you have to invest ranks in skills to use certain class features.  There's concentration for spellcasting, perform for bardic music, disable device and search for trapfinding, and survival for track (when you get it as a bonus feat).  If it's a premise of the design of a class that you'll put a rank in a skill every level, I think the class should automatically give you a rank in that skill every level. 
I don't know how you would fix that OTHER than giving out free ranks or negating the checks.

I like what Pathfinder did with skills.  They made the difference between class and cross-class skills a consistent 3, instead of 2 at 1st level, 3 at 2nd and 3rd level, and so on up to 12 at 20th level.  I like that anyone can be reasonably good at a skill, even at high level, and without double the investment.  I also like the further consolidation of skills.  Some of the merged skills are acrobatics (balance, jump, tumble), diplomacy (diplomacy, gather information), disable device (disable device, open lock), linguistics (decipher script, forgery, speak language), perception (listen, search, spot), and stealth (hide, move silently). 
With the exception of speak language, I'm with you on the consolidation of skills.


My current problem is that I want to make skills grant static abilities based on ranks. This would give perks to people who actually HAVE ranks, as opposed to +skill spells. I'm probably going to just tone down the Tome skill feats.

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2011, 12:50:09 PM »
Skills have a bunch of problems.

The first and most direct problem is its binary nature. For most skills, when you have to make a skill check, you either success or fail. No middle point. This, combined with a linear nature, makes them pretty unreliable and unpredictable. When you add on top the lack of skill points, you end with one of the following results: either you overspecialize and pass regularly any skill check, or you don't place a single rank and hope you never have to make a skill roll related to that skill. Middle ground is bad, because not being able to make a roll on a 1 or more means, because of IP, that you'll fail sooner than later.

Another problem is the lack of a -real- measure of needed skill bonifiers for different tasks. There are a bunch of examples, but it is still guesswork to discover an acceptable DC for a given situation most of the time. And the fact that most of the time those guidelines DC aren't decently adjusted at all (such as with diplomacy) just makes this worse.

By the way, because of this last problem, non-optimized skills become even more of a no-no. Too many challenges are tailored only for the characters speciallizing in it. This is reasonable for many skills, because the system assumes specialization, but there are a lot of skills which should not have those problems.

This is related to other problem: the difference of improvement on different skills. Most of them increase in power lineally, while some other (very few others, in fact) scale quadratically. This said, this problem depends a lot on what do you expect from the skills. There are a lot of people who wants realistic skills. If that's the case, a level 15 character shouldn't be jump much further than a 1st level character, which is what, right now, the system supports. But this makes many skills not worth to invest in, because the improvement is only marginally benefical.

Another problem is the set of skills the dessigners chose. Too many skills are just redundant, or simply lack usefulness to be a skill by themselves. Rope Use is the worst offender, but Jump and climb have their own share of problems. In fact, AFAIK, jump became mainstream thanks to Battle Jump, Leap Attack and Tiger Claw maneuvers, and, if it weren't because of those, it's a skill no one would put ranks in.

Other one is the high variance due to magic items. Skill ranks only matter for prerequisites, so the only "real" value for skill usage is the total bonus. A +10 bonus to a skill is pretty cheap, compared, for example, to a +3 to attack. This makes the extra skill rank you can give to a skill whenever you level up feel pretty cheap, and makes it even more difficult to asses an aproppiate CD for skill checks. Most of the time, reaching an acceptable degree of proficiency with the skill requires either maximizing the skill and adding a lot of feats, class features and items, or just casting a spell or getting an appropiate magic item. In the end, the value of the ranks themselves is fairly low.

But the most atrocious problem with skills is that they aren't exactly too useful most of the time, and most of the time they just don't offer enough rewards for pursuing them, because skills suffer the same syndrome than the fighter against spellcasters: Too many times, Spells Do It Better.

For example, going back to jump and climb... why should you use them when you can just Overland Flight all the day? Or simply teleport to your target. Why use knowledge skills when you can cast Legend Lore or Contact other Plane?

This is not a problem on the lower levels, when the resources are scarce, but on the higher levels, too many skills lose their usefulness and start working just as PrC and feat requirement fodder. There are some skills worth putting ranks on the higher levels (UMD), but not many.
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Unbeliever

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2011, 12:58:14 PM »
We've consolidated skills a bit, but not to the level that PF does.  We did:  
  • Listen + Spot => Perception
  • Hide + Move Silently => Stealth
  • Climb + Jump + Swim => Athletics
I can see the others as well, like next time I may fold Search into Perception.  I hesitated to make Acrobatics = Tumble and Balance b/c those are two pretty useful skills on their own.  But, I think since I've gotten used to the idea I'd probably start w/ PF's version of skills in general.  Although I think I might leave Speak Language separate from Linguistics just to keep track of things.

I think Skill Tricks are a good place to start.  It's also worth noting that stuff like Divine Insight makes someone awesome at a skill, but only sporadically.  So, it's really good for that character that needs to make 1 awesome Jump or Intimidate or Tumble check per encounter.  That being said, that character is bound to have maxed ranks and an item boosting that skill as it is, so it's not like you're taking away from skill monkey type characters.  Although, if you want to elevate their importance, it couldn't hurt to either ban or limit that spell (to ranks you have in the skill?).

I think my biggest complaint is that the DCs are so high.  This is solved a little on the back end by getting items that boost them, but it's just so hard to do spectacularly skilled things.  So, unless you are a killer optimizer, by the time you can imitate Vigo Mortensen's "I'm so good at tracking I can practically travel through time" abilities, your buddy w/ the pointy hat next to you can travel in time.  

But, yeah, I think the idea of letting you do things like Skill Tricks, but more frequently, or even some of the suboptimal feats (Blind-Fight?) for investing large numbers of ranks in skills might be a good place to start.  For what it's worth, our skillmonkey characters rarely feel like they've wasted their skills, but (1) that's not all they do, and (2) that may be due to good DMing and playing by finding uses for them.

Rejakor

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2011, 01:19:38 PM »
The Tome skill feats are, a lot of them, utterly worthless.  Using some of the more useful ones as a guide, i'd just write your own.  Someone started a project similar to this (new skill list, abilities based on skill rank, skill tricks which actually /did/ things (usually requiring a certain number of ranks in 2 or 3 skills to take the trick, and providing a benefit similar to a 2-4th level buff spell), sane numbers of skills and more specialized skills that make SENSE being specialized (geomancy was a skill)) on dndwiki, I don't know the name but it was something about alternate skill system or something.

I'd take Dodge, Combat Expertise/Power Attack, Blind-Fight, and any other number of sorry ass useless feats you care to name and fold them into the skill system (blind fight could be the 6-rank ability of Listen/Perception, for example).

As for skill adding:

Listen + Spot + Search = Perception/Awareness/Senses

Hide + Move Silently = Stealth

Climb + Jump + Swim = Athletics

Tumble + Balance = Acrobatics

As for DCs:

Scale them to spells.  If a wizard can at 5th level track through mud and water and teleportation, so should someone with 8 ranks in Survival and the Bloodhound skill trick.  Someone with the Dedicated Tracker skill trick (requires spellcraft 2/4 ranks, and Awareness 2/4 ranks) can track Teleportation exits for days/ranks, see through magical effects with a skill vs caster level/save DC that block tracking, and track normally untrackable things like flying, weightless, or scentless creatures.

Which leads to awesome stuff like "sniff sniff 'Smells like they came out around 300 miles east of here.  Camden Hills, that'd be.  I've still got some friends there.  Well.  Let's get going.".  Eh?  Ehhhh?  That's what using skills should be like in DnD, where monks punch hard enough to bend steel, and wizards regularly make the world asplode at level 1.

Rejakor

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2011, 01:36:24 PM »
+

All skills that are 'required' to make classes work should be systematically stripped out.  For example, Concentration (if you even want to keep it, I would, but i'd fold Autohypnosis and even, later on in the ranks, Iaijutsu Focus into it) should have NOTHING TO DO with casting spells under difficult circumstances.  Make a new system based on Con + CL (or something) with modifiers for weather/distraction/ACF.

Make Tumble need 7-10 ranks to negate AoOs as part of a normal move action (include 'at half speed' earlier), so it's less of a mandatory dip, even though it still will be for most melee.  That's okay.  Just make enough OTHER good skills that they actually have to PICK instead of just taking it automatically.

Finally, like I said, scale ALL skills to spells.  One spell level later.  So an 11th level wizard can cast 6th level spells.  So a maxed out 11th level rogue's Stealth should be doing something, equivalent to a 4th or 5th level spell.  A skillmonkey gets a few more skills maxed than a equivalent level caster does spells per day of their second highest level.  So at level 11 a maxed out Stealth should be doing about as much as one 1st level spell, one 2nd level spell, and one 4th or 5th level spell.  Spread it out a bit, and make it more skilley and constant than durationey or perdayey.  So think mundane but still AS GOOD and always on/always useable instead of 1/day or 3/day.  But don't think that always on should equal 1/100th the power.  That doesn't work in a game where fights rarely last longer than 5 rounds, and lots of utility spells are ten minutes or 1hr/CL.

Also i'd make Sleight Of Hand part of Devices (Disable Device, Open Lock, Craft (Device), Craft (Trap)) and also make it a choice in the Perform skill's list of 'performance abilities (1 per 2 ranks invested in the skill)'.  Perform is one skill I am fine being the basis for a class' powers (Bard).  It should also be mildly incestuous in the way it interacts with bluff diplomacy sense motive etc, with lots of interlaced skill tricks like Reading The Room (perform 6 sense motive 4) perform check to gain a feeling of how the audience feels about you and any hidden emotional undercurrents (read: anger, tension, anticipation  = the skill use reports back 'they are waiting for someone to come or someone already here to do something and then they're going to attack him/her/it').

If you made Diplomacy not-insane you could package it with Bluff and Sense Motive.

Knowledges should be separate, but there should be a skill trick calld Knowledgeable that lets you apply ranks in one knowledge skill to other knowledge skills at a 2 for 1 rate... so maxing one knowledge skill lets you max out 2 more for free, or get half max ranks in 4 others.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2011, 01:52:23 PM »
To easy to boost to the high heavens.
Ranks hardly matter, only bonuses.
Majority trivialized by spells or flight.
The RNG is too big. A basic commoner from a running start can long jump between 1ft and 20ft. Depends if he gets lucky.
A correlate to above, skills often aren't worth using unless you can guarantee success either by taking 10 or having enough bonuses to leave the RNG.
In-class/cross-class is a stupid distinction and should be completely scrapped. Why can't Sorcerers learn to Tumble? Why can't Fighters read books? All skills should be in class for everyone.
People don't get enough skill points. Spell casters and Bards effectively  skill points just to use class features. Fighters and such can only learn what amounts to 2 or 3 skills in their lifetime.

The issue that in order for skills to stay relevant to a level appropriate challenge you must either say fuckall to the RNG and get eighteen bonuses to skills from fourteen books. But as we've stated, this is a terrible aspect of the system and should be changed. But this leads to the fact that you must blow a point every level for a skill to stay level appropriate. This means that no one is gaining more skills as they level up. Rouges will only be level appropriate at 8+Int things. This system requires foresight from low levels, when certain skills have practice uses, to be powerful at high levels, when most skills are impractical. A level 1 rouge has something to gain from ranks in Climb. By the time he's level 8 he can fly whenever he wants to all day.

wotmaniac

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2011, 01:57:56 PM »
Here was my attempt with this.  :shrug

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Rejakor

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2011, 02:40:20 PM »
De-emphasize total skill bonuses except for opposed checks and whatnot.

Make Ranks in the skill the most important thing.  Having 8 ranks in survival is what lets you track people everywhere, not having a +20 competence bonus.

Nytemare3701

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2011, 03:11:12 PM »
De-emphasize total skill bonuses except for opposed checks and whatnot.

Make Ranks in the skill the most important thing.  Having 8 ranks in survival is what lets you track people everywhere, not having a +20 competence bonus.

I'm leaning heavily towards this. A +skill spell or item will help with your opposed checks for move silently, but won't do anything for the actual abilities granted.

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2011, 03:46:57 PM »
I have a bookmark for just this occasion:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9375.msg316582;topicseen#msg316582

That's my problem with Skills, they stop matter halfway through the game, unless it's a specific skill (Like Knowledges for Knowledge Devotion or Epic Spellcasting, or Use Magic Device which is always good to have, or Diplomacy if your DM is kind. Or Iaijutsu Focus.)
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2011, 04:29:39 PM »
    Having a skillmonkey role is good, as is reinforcing class skills (though the system is a bit too complicated, I agree).

    Having many separate skills is good. House rules that combine things only make casters stronger.

    Having magic easily duplicate huge bonuses is bad. Casters need nerfs, we know this.

    Making skills not binary would only add more confusion as to the outcome of non-set DCs. What about sense motive losing by -1? -11? We don't need specific rules for these things.

    Concentration is a skill tax on casters that should have the DCs atleast doubled. Its even flavorful for mundanes thanks to martial study. The other skills function the way they are supposed to, more or less. Some need DC tweaking, but that is encouraged RAI by the extreme lack of specific DCs.

    The real problem with skills is that they are not useful enough both because they are simply limited and because magic does it better. Specifically:

    • Magical flight means Balance, Climb, and Jump are useless.
    • FoM means Escape Artist and even swimming is useless
    • Knock makes Open Lock useless unless I'm missing something.
    • Spells that directly make a caster a better skill monkey than a skill monkey: Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, and Use Rope.
    • Even handle animal is made more useless than it already was with the charm animal / monster spells.
    • Speak Language isn't worth the int when you have Tongues
    • Survival has little point with create food and water. A ring of sustenance is overkill. Even endure elements makes the flavorful parts pathetic.
    • How does track track airborn, teleporting foes again?
    • Don't get me started on the non-healing "Heal" skill.  :rollseyes

    What should be done:
    • Force Balance during flight.
    • Use no-air or magic-suppressing areas in campaigns to force Climb and Jump.
    • Have FoM counter FoM. So you can grapple someone with FoM. Or have FoM-countering fluids.
    • Remove spells (but not effects) that completely or nearly auto-succeed (and therefore invalidate) skills like Knock, Disguise Self (and Alterself's disguise bonus), Comprehend Languages, Tongues, Identify, Glibness, Moment of Prescience, Create Food, Create Water, Endure Elements, Charm x, etc.
    • Make skills that are pretty useless actually do something. Why does appraise not give you an exact gp value or identify a magic item? Buff this mundane stuff.
    • Survival should actually be needed for inhospitable places, not a wizard who's never left the library.
    • Perform and heal are usually 'must haves' for certain classes. I don't see it that way. Why make a heal check when you can use a cantrip? Why take a standard action to sing when there are a ton of better morale bonus buffs instead?
    • Do something, anything, to the nearly worthless profession and craft skills
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 08:18:45 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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X-Codes

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2011, 05:40:58 PM »
I compacted the skill system down on my own, and posted a list here (link in sig).  I'm currently working on building upon that using the same idea as the skill trick system: invest the necessary skill ranks, spend two skill points, and get something special.  Not just one-shot skill tricks that you don't get back at the end of the encounter, but also a number of the weaker feats that you typically see as feat taxes for certain shticks (Examples: Darkstalker, Force of Personality, Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw, etc.).  I also think that it's not only spells like Divine Insight (which is ridiculous), but also Item Familiars and cheap Competence bonus items.  Tone down the Competence bonuses to about the same level as weapon enhancements and then I think we're getting somewhere.

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2011, 05:46:02 PM »
Would something like this help? It's toning down the successful spells, and giving more uses for skills, like PBMC suggested. Obviously not complete.

[spoiler]
Skills:

Appraise - Identify a magical item: DC 15 + CL to identify an item's properties. Can take 10, but no retries until you gain another rank. Max ranks and a masterwork item or +2 Int makes this an automatic success for level-appropriate items. Takes 10 minutes.

Concentration: The various uses have their DCs scale with twice the spell's level instead of just the spell's level.

Spellcraft: The various uses have their DCs scale with twice the spell's level instead of just the spell's level.

Survival - Resist spell damage: DC 20 to gain energy resistance 5 against a single damage source as an immediate action. Resistance increases by 1 for every point by which you beat the DC.
Survival - Track across or under water: DC 25 for calm water, DC 30 for rough water
Survival - Track through the air: DC 30 for calm air, DC 35 for high winds
Survival - Track a teleporting creature: DC +5 to notice, DC +15 to determine where on the same plane, or if it went to another plane, DC +20 to determine which plane it went to and where it arrived there.



Spells: The following effects replace the current spells' effects with respect to skills and their uses.

Alter Self: When used to disguise yourself, functions as disguise self (see below), but isn't an illusion so there's no Will save.
Disguise Self: Can disguise self in the spell's cast time (1 standard action) instead of the usual 1d3x10 minutes, grants a +2 bonus as per a masterwork kit, and lets you use CL instead of ranks. However, the disguise is a glamer, so a successful Will save allows viewers to see through it. Also, the disguise only lasts as long as the spell does.
Freedom of Movement: May make an Escape Artist check as a free action 1/round while under its effects. May use CL instead of ranks.
Glibness: You can take 10 on Bluff checks (even when threatened), and you may use CL instead of ranks. Still provides protection against magical countermeasures.
Identify: Grants an Appraise check to identify an item. Can be used to retry a failed check. Standard action cast time. May use CL instead of ranks.
Knock: Grants an Open Lock/Disable Device check at range as a standard action. May use CL instead of ranks.
Pass Without Trace: DC to track you is at +5, or +10 if you try to hide your trail and move at half speed.
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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2011, 06:31:33 PM »
I like the idea for Disguise Self and Alter Self.  Maybe a +4 bonus not stacking with a MW kit, since it is still, arguably, better.

Freedom of Movement changes are absolutely necessary.

Glibness as you changed it should now be a 1st-level spell.

Knock should dispel any magic keeping the door locked as well as allowing an Open Lock check, but don't substitute CL here.

Midnight_v

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2011, 07:07:04 PM »
Most of what has been said above.
Plus...
My grievnace?
The way they're distributed to classes. Spot.(perception if you prefer) Tumble. Listen. Sense motive. . .
I find it annoying that people have to be limited to skill by the class. I suspect this is to protect the "skill monkey's" uniqness, but I it contrived. No I could agree with "hey your an X, you get so many skills per level.." sure, whatever, the implication that your a fighter and they don't spot well when most guards are supposed to be fighters or whatever doesn't work.
 As a caveat to that. . .

 There really need to be 2 sets of skills. Combat skills and Non-combat skills, and you should have 2 separate pools of skill for each.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2011, 07:31:43 PM »
To me skill falls into one of 4 categories:

-Skills you want to max out: diplomacy, intimidate, UMD, concentration, etc

-Skills you want 5 ranks in for the synergy bonus: bluff, certain knowledge skills, etc

-Skills you want 1 rank in so you can make a trained check: open lock, certain knowledge skills, etc

-Skills needed as prerequisites for PrCs, feats, etc

We have to look at the fact that it's pretty easy to boost your total skill check modifier with things like synergy bonuses, masterwork items, feats, class features, certain spells and magic items, high stat scores, and other things.

JaronK

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Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2011, 06:39:07 AM »
A huge problem is how hard it is to gauge what an acceptable DC for a given level is.  If I require a DC 40 hide check for a level 10 character to sneak by something, is that easy or hard?  A Human Rogue 10 with 13 Ranks and Dex 20 only has a +18 and can't even possibly make this check.  A Whispergnome Factotum 10 with Dex 18 and Int 20 with an Item Familiar boosting Hide and a Ring of Chameleon Power has 26 effective ranks for +45 to hide and finds this trivially easy even with some penalties.  This makes life hard for anyone trying to do a general adventure module, and leads to metagaming... if you just make it hard for the player you have, smart players just stop boosting their skills (if you'd adapt to the Rogue and give him a DC of 35, but against the Factotum give it as a DC 52, a smart player just stops investing ranks as the number will always be the same no matter what). 

A quick fix would be to cap skill bonuses somehow based on level.  For example, you might say that you can't stack any bonuses except stat, size, and circumstance bonuses above max ranks.  As such, a level 1 Whispergnome uses his racial bonus to hide (+4) but can't add any ranks to that (though doing so means penalties might not have any effect).  When he gains a level, his total max bonus other than stats, size, and tools is +5, so he could throw in a rank.  This overall would make difficulties make more sense... it would be reasonable to say that a DC 35 is very hard for a level 10 character, while a DC 40 is nearly impossible.  And this means skill boosting magic items are mostly just to cover for skills you don't have naturally.

If you want to do a complete overhaul, look at Shadowrun or White Wolf games for a good model that makes skills less binary and more predictable.

JaronK