Author Topic: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters  (Read 10968 times)

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Shiki

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Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« on: February 10, 2011, 11:03:09 AM »
JaronK has started a guide about this here. You'll get more info in that thread than here as pretty much everything that is here and more is in that thread and will probably be updated over time.

This is simply a quote of JaronK, from this thread, on page 20: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10926.0. I felt it needed its own thread in this section, as it is pretty informative if you do want to make a stealthy character. I will not be adding anything else. Since it is also pretty clean, I won't do any extra formatting.

Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters, by JaronK

I'll just put this simply: I've played scouts before.  I've never had problems.  In fact, I've never had a character die while scouting, not once, but I have made a lot of encounters far easier with decent scouting.  I've seen one scout character die to a trap, but that was level 2 in World's Largest Dungeon and that trap would have killed anyone else in the party except the Crusader had she not taken that hit, so that's hardly an argument against scouting.  So, maybe others can't do it, but I can, and have, and this whole argument has boiled down to a bunch of people saying "I can't do it, therefor it's impossible."  So instead of going back and forth on specific scenarios from a DM who clearly has no experience with this, I'll just post how to scout, because that's actually useful.  Here's the main things you need to keep in mind, and I'll phrase them for all kinds of games (high optimization and low).

1)  Be invisible to as many things as possible.  

A)  The most basic part of this is Hide and Move Silently, because everything has Spot and Listen, even if they have no ranks.  As a rule, you're only truly safe if your Hide and Move Silently, after modifiers, are 11 higher than the enemy's Spot and Listen.  That way, if you take 10 while sneaking around the enemy cannot possibly find you.  This is trivially easy... a Halfling straight out of the box gets +5 Hide, and +3 Move Silently, while a Whispergnome gets +9 Hide and +5 Move Silently.  Through in max ranks in both skills and a 14 base thrown into dex and you're looking at +11/+9 or +15/+11 even at level 1, when the vast majority of enemies don't even have spot ranks.  Note also that distracted people have a -5 to their spot and listen, and there's an additional -1 to spot and listen for every 10 feet between the observer and what they're spotting.  With these kinds of penalties, you don't even need items to avoid any chance of detection.  As you go up in levels you'll want to invest a bit of money into keeping Hide and Move Silently up, an amount determined by how much it comes up.  The Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (22k continuous, 10k for 10 minutes per day) is great for this, providing the Dark template cheap (which gives +8 hide, +6 move silently, Darkvision and Superior Low Light Vision, and (Ex) hide in plain sight along with a few other nice abilities).  Shadowsilk Leather Armor is just 1,750gp and provides +2 to hide and move silently while also being extremely light weight (an issue for low strength stealth types), and it's not even magical so crafting it for 1/3 price is a possibility in games where that works.  There's also basic mundane gear like Silent Shoes and Darkweave Clothing that can increase both skills.  And if you're a Factotum, you even get to add your Int to it.  In the end, you should have little to no trouble keeping your Hide and Move Silently up so high that nothing can possibly detect you via Spot or Listen.

B)  Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, and Blindsight are all relatively common abilities that autodetect you, and you just can't have that.  Luckily, these are easily countered by taking the Darkstalker feat, which requires them to follow the Spot-Hide/Listen-Move Silently mechanic.  Since you needed those to be up anyway, this handles the problem nicely, but the feat is basically required if you want to be a stealthy character.  Without it, you're hosed... which is part of why Wizards and such actually aren't very good at this sort of thing.  No spell protects you from these things (at least not in a useful way).

C)  Lifesense.  This feat from Libris Mortis is only available to undead and causes all living creatures to glow brightly in your vision (a medium or smaller creature gives off 60 feet of light, while larger creatures double the light given off for every size category they are above medium).  Note that even invisible light sources give off light, so this sense completely trumps invisibility and no amount of hiding will save you (the enemy won't see you, but they'll know exactly where you are anyway.  They'll even see you coming from around corners).  On the bright side (heh) Necropolitans are found in this same book.  Basically, if Libris Mortis is in play, you absolutely want to be a Necropolitan (which is very useful for stealthers anyway for a variety of reasons).  If it's not in play, Lifesense isn't an issue anyway so there's nothing to worry about.  And if you do become a Necropolitan, take this feat!

D)  Touchsight.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 07:47:34 PM by Shiki »
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2011, 11:14:53 AM »
If you prefer to keep it in quote format, you should put a font-increase inside the quote box.

Quote
Easily done via [quote][size=10] *insert text here* [/size][/quote].
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veekie

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2011, 11:20:30 AM »
Hmm, one good ablative defense I use a lot myself(I like sneak-gishes) is Abrupt Jaunt off the Conjuror's familiar replacement. Any other cost effective ones? How about senses.
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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[/spoiler]

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snow_white

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2011, 11:33:18 AM »
Hmm, one good ablative defense I use a lot myself(I like sneak-gishes) is Abrupt Jaunt off the Conjuror's familiar replacement. Any other cost effective ones? How about senses.

Add on a Shadow Cloak from DotU for an additional 3 times a day (against attacks). 5k gold =)

Shiki

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2011, 12:36:27 PM »
If you prefer to keep it in quote format, you should put a font-increase inside the quote box.

Quote
Easily done via [quote][size=10] *insert text here* [/size][/quote].
Done. o:
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JaronK

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2011, 02:03:24 PM »
Aw heck, if it's gonna be a guide I'll have to actually go through and add in classes and builds and everything.  Yeesh.

JaronK

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2011, 02:20:42 PM »
Skulks (Races of Destiny 105) are pretty excellent base stealth race for lower-level campaigns (They don't come with the stuff to make it at higher levels). They come with a few problems, but +15 to Hide and +8 to Move Silently as well as the ability to move full speed while hiding is a pretty sweet package.

If you have any intelligence bonus at all you'll want to make your first level feat something that lets you buy ranks in skills other than hide and move silently for 1 point per rank, because their only class skills are hide and move silently.
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JaronK

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2011, 02:27:59 PM »
Skulks look good on paper, but remember they're ECL 3.  Compare them to a Shadow Whispergnome with a class level (ECL 3 as well) and the Skulk just can't compete too well.  I find them most useful as an Alter Self form when a caster wants to try his hand at stealthing, but I'm not sure they're worthwhile as a race pick.

JaronK

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2011, 02:32:26 PM »
Just going off of the top of my head but wouldn't Changeling's be a decent choice with their innate alter self abilities? Also the Skulk progression class provides a solid bonus at first level if you can get away with not taking the rest of it.
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veekie

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2011, 02:55:35 PM »
Just going off of the top of my head but wouldn't Changeling's be a decent choice with their innate alter self abilities? Also the Skulk progression class provides a solid bonus at first level if you can get away with not taking the rest of it.
Changelings only have innate Disguise Self, though it makes a good urban scout for that reason. An easily applied disguise like that lets you scout in plain sight.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Talore

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2011, 02:56:11 PM »
Dark Necropolitian Strongheart Halfling

Take Darkstalker and Lifesense. Small/Medium sized creatures emit 240ft bright illumination, 480ft dim illumination for you. I'm not sure about the rules for spotting the actual light, but it's pretty damn big, and creatures are not going to spot you 480ft away if you're hiding (in plain sight).

I plan on going Beguiler, lv1 dip in Mindbender, then figure it out from there. Taking Bloodline feats from Dragon magazine to get moar spells.

Have fun with 'The Corpse,' master of nabbing suprise rounds, setting up ambushes, and general trickery and stealth.
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Shiki

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 05:33:47 PM »
Aw heck, if it's gonna be a guide I'll have to actually go through and add in classes and builds and everything.  Yeesh.

JaronK

You don't need to for now I guess. Then again, I could go back on what I said in the OP about not adding anything if lots of suggestions and love gets posted here, and eventually turn this into something bigger. At that point I'll probably need your help though. :P
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Felix Underwood

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 05:36:00 PM »
Talore, I think Dark Creature provides Superior low-light vision (3x distance)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 11:49:40 PM »
Skulks look good on paper, but remember they're ECL 3.  Compare them to a Shadow Whispergnome with a class level (ECL 3 as well) and the Skulk just can't compete too well.  I find them most useful as an Alter Self form when a caster wants to try his hand at stealthing, but I'm not sure they're worthwhile as a race pick.

JaronK
Yeah, and when you're using LA for stealth there's a choice so effective it's evaded notice in this thread thus far.
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Shiki

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Re: Mini-Guide to Stealthy Characters
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 07:49:47 AM »
Ghost aw. :>
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