Author Topic: Why Fighters Suck Redux.  (Read 59507 times)

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veekie

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2011, 12:43:28 PM »
Whats the radius on that spell again and why aren't you dropping an AoE on that?

So if its not an issue in your group, awesome. But on the boards, D&D is played on the bleeding edge, which means a high degree of self suffiency.
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[spoiler]
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-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
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[/spoiler]

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Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2011, 01:13:55 PM »
I play only PbP/PbF and I didn't notice this. Guess I'm lucky.

Where do you play? GitP?

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2011, 01:19:37 PM »
I play only PbP/PbF and I didn't notice this. Guess I'm lucky.

Where do you play? GitP?
No. I'm polish and my english is too poor. I'm playing on polish boards.
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[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

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Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
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Whisper

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2011, 06:20:26 PM »
eventually, you are surpassed even as a buff target.

Why? Summons. Summons are disposable. You are not, if only for the meta-gaming reason that you are a PC. Ergo, they make better meat shields than you do.
An exaggeration without abusing planar binding.
You need to go to some extremes to get summons out(generally requiring class level investments) without losing rounds in combat and then the buffs don't work so well, as the best of them, Polymorph and co, work less well on summons that have their own abilities that they're losing in the process, whereas classed characters add their abilities to the ones polymorph give.

No, no, no.

The superiority of summons is that they are disposable. Did you read that part?

A fighter-type summon isn't useful as a fighter, because fighters aren't useful. It's useful as ablative armor for the casters. It's better because you can let it die, as opposed to having to change tactics to bail it out because it's your "friend".

The difference between a summon and a fighter is like the difference between a bomb disposal robot and a guy in a wheelchair. Both are crippled compared to ordinary people. But one is useful, even vital, because it's expendable, and the other has no business on a bomb squad.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2011, 06:26:02 PM »
Is this an cRPG we are speaking about? Are the PC some kind of constructs who don't feel?
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Solo

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2011, 06:27:13 PM »

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2011, 06:32:13 PM »
Is this an cRPG we are speaking about? Are the PC some kind of constructs who don't feel?

There are no rules for pain, and only one status effect. PCs are construct who don't feel.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2011, 06:35:48 PM »
Is this an cRPG we are speaking about? Are the PC some kind of constructs who don't feel?

There are no rules for pain, and only one status effect. PCs are construct who don't feel.
Emotions? Friendship? Compassion? Not every PC out there is NE.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Kajhera

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2011, 06:37:33 PM »
Is this an cRPG we are speaking about? Are the PC some kind of constructs who don't feel?

There are no rules for pain, and only one status effect. PCs are construct who don't feel.
Emotions? Friendship? Compassion? Not every PC out there is NE.

... If you're talking about disposable summons, should your celestial monkey take a faceful of trap, he spends 24 hours resting and then heads back to wander the heavenly realms. It's not exactly a heartrending scene.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2011, 06:46:24 PM »
Is this an cRPG we are speaking about? Are the PC some kind of constructs who don't feel?

There are no rules for pain, and only one status effect. PCs are construct who don't feel.
Emotions? Friendship? Compassion? Not every PC out there is NE.

... If you're talking about disposable summons, should your celestial monkey take a faceful of trap, he spends 24 hours resting and then heads back to wander the heavenly realms. It's not exactly a heartrending scene.
No. I'm talking about the notion to treat a fighter like a summon.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2011, 06:58:18 PM »
Is this an cRPG we are speaking about? Are the PC some kind of constructs who don't feel?

There are no rules for pain, and only one status effect. PCs are construct who don't feel.
Emotions? Friendship? Compassion? Not every PC out there is NE.

... If you're talking about disposable summons, should your celestial monkey take a faceful of trap, he spends 24 hours resting and then heads back to wander the heavenly realms. It's not exactly a heartrending scene.
No. I'm talking about the notion to treat a fighter like a summon.

Well, we can't. And since both the summon and the fighter both can't do the beatstick job without running a high risk of dying, isn't it more humane to use the summon?

Which leaves the fighter as, what - Second banana to a summon? Thats sad. Thats bad design.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 07:07:56 PM by Gods_Trick »

Kajhera

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2011, 07:06:05 PM »
Check your quotes there Gods_Trick.

Shadeseraph

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2011, 07:06:35 PM »
Precisely because we can't use the fighter as a summon (ie: disposable) the fighter holds back his utility compared to a real summon.

In D&D, specially on higher levels, everything dies in 1 or 2 rounds. Certainly, both a summon and a fighter can stop a monster for a pair of rounds, but after that the summon or fighter is dead. The difference is that a summon costs a X level spell slot, while the fighter costs a spell, 5000 gp or 25000 gp and 25% of the party's XP and wealth.

So, summarizing, a party composed of a wizard, a cleric, a rogue and a fighter has a very small improvement in the form of a full round action from the wizard or cleric compared to a party formed by a wizard, a cleric and a rogue. But while the members of the first group are getting each 25% of the prizes of the adventures, every character in the second group is gaining 33% of the same prizes. This, in itself, isn't bad or wrong. Changes the gameplay speed, and maybe the wealth distribution, but that's something dependant on the gameplay. The real problem is that the first group has to invest in measures to protect the fighter, be it resurrection and true resurrection spells or the defenses to make the fighter not die in combat. It's far more resource effective to just dump a summon.

This is, again, in a game where the stakes are at its highest, and everything is played very intelligently and the DM chooses not to fumble dice. It is a specific kind of game, which you can disagree with. But it's the kind of game many people here likes.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 07:09:02 PM by Shadeseraph »
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2011, 07:30:37 PM »
Precisely because we can't use the fighter as a summon (ie: disposable) the fighter holds back his utility compared to a real summon.

In D&D, specially on higher levels, everything dies in 1 or 2 rounds. Certainly, both a summon and a fighter can stop a monster for a pair of rounds, but after that the summon or fighter is dead. The difference is that a summon costs a X level spell slot, while the fighter costs a spell, 5000 gp or 25000 gp and 25% of the party's XP and wealth.

So, summarizing, a party composed of a wizard, a cleric, a rogue and a fighter has a very small improvement in the form of a full round action from the wizard or cleric compared to a party formed by a wizard, a cleric and a rogue. But while the members of the first group are getting each 25% of the prizes of the adventures, every character in the second group is gaining 33% of the same prizes. This, in itself, isn't bad or wrong. Changes the gameplay speed, and maybe the wealth distribution, but that's something dependant on the gameplay. The real problem is that the first group has to invest in measures to protect the fighter, be it resurrection and true resurrection spells or the defenses to make the fighter not die in combat. It's far more resource effective to just dump a summon.

This is, again, in a game where the stakes are at its highest, and everything is played very intelligently and the DM chooses not to fumble dice. It is a specific kind of game, which you can disagree with. But it's the kind of game many people here likes.
Okay. I understand fully.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Whisper

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2011, 09:09:00 PM »
Is this an cRPG we are speaking about? Are the PC some kind of constructs who don't feel?

*Sigh*.

Are you not reading? It is precisely *because* the fighter is a PC and companion, and will presumably not be treated as disposable, that the fighter can't measure up to a summon.

Meatshield entities are useful if they soak up *damage*. If they soak up *protection*, instead, because you can't allow them to be damaged, they are just a resource sink.

This is not to say that your characters cannot be human and compassionate, and cannot have fighters as friends. They just can't adventure with them.

It's like having a friend who's in a wheelchair. At the local pub, he's a great guy who tells some really smashing jokes. But when you are trying to climb Mount Everest, he is a lethal liability. Leave him at the pub.

veekie

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2011, 09:31:37 PM »
Basically, yeah, the thing with summons though, is that many casters capable of spending the full round action summoning could go for ending the fight via one of their other spells, instead of bringing a beatstick to the table. Hence, summoning's appropriateness depends on if you have access to Standard action or better summons.

Consider this also, a damage soak needs to have abilities to well...soak, prevent or otherwise mitigate damage, as well as the ability to draw fire. A d10 is only on average 2hp per level higher than the d6 rogue, AC alone doesn't do a lot to mitigate damage when its all or nothing, if a lucky, high damage attack gets past it, it goes through unmodified.
Compare rangers and barbarians. One comes with a free, disposable meatshield that is easily replaced, and the other has a d12, and the ability to increase hp temporarily(so healing can be deferred to post battle), as well as weak damage reduction. Both can take the same feats any fighter might take, and indeed Rangers have an edge on offense there, in that they get two weapon or archery styles regardless of the prerequisites(Being able to go TWF without needing to pump Dexterity is very good, and the archery feats means you can focus on ranged combat effectively even if you substitute ability scores(Zen Archery or Power Throw), not to mention the perks of fighting a Favored Enemy. Meanwhile, barbarians get a bonus that'd apply to practically every sort of melee mayhem while raging, and generally have enough uses to rage every fight.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2011, 09:53:35 AM »
Well, this is most certainly amusing.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2011, 09:57:56 AM »
Gimp = Fighter.

Resource sink who gives nothing back = Fighter.

Summons, meanwhile give something back, and you don't care if they die.
Actually, Sunic, if the gimp dies, the party gets to split his WBL three ways and tells the player to roll up something competent, and refuses to sink thousands of gold to bringing him back at a lower level.  It's really kind of win-win.  Either the player rolls something good, or he dies again, and the party gets to split his WBL loot again.

:p
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2011, 10:00:22 AM »
Gimp = Fighter.

Resource sink who gives nothing back = Fighter.

Summons, meanwhile give something back, and you don't care if they die.
Actually, Sunic, if the gimp dies, the party gets to split his WBL three ways and tells the player to roll up something competent, and refuses to sink thousands of gold to bringing him back at a lower level.  It's really kind of win-win.  Either the player rolls something good, or he dies again, and the party gets to split his WBL loot again.

:p

Well that's true, but most MCs will make up some reason why you can't do that.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2011, 10:37:29 AM »
Gimp = Fighter.

Resource sink who gives nothing back = Fighter.

Summons, meanwhile give something back, and you don't care if they die.
Actually, Sunic, if the gimp dies, the party gets to split his WBL three ways and tells the player to roll up something competent, and refuses to sink thousands of gold to bringing him back at a lower level.  It's really kind of win-win.  Either the player rolls something good, or he dies again, and the party gets to split his WBL loot again.

:p

Well that's true, but most MCs will make up some reason why you can't do that.

In my group this tends to come in the form of bizarrely convenient / plotlike resurrections or the fact that many easy ways to die do in fact turn one undead, and ignore the mind getting erased thing.

When you have a necromancer in every other party death is notsomuch a problem as an opportunity for improvement.