Author Topic: Why Fighters Suck Redux.  (Read 59493 times)

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veekie

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2011, 09:25:17 AM »
How many of these feats manage to stay relevant past 6th except for the compulsory feat tax sorts(e.g. TWF, which you need to do your fighting style at all) or highly specific combos(Shock Trooper, which is...about it as far as that strategy goes)?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2011, 09:28:54 AM »
Beats me. I'm not an DnD expert. :P
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2011, 09:39:04 AM »

Feats are the fighters class features. And he has more then enough. That gives him versatility (in combat at least).

No. Just ... no. In a different system, this might true, but no option that the Fighter has access to matches that of a good 4th level spell. The best third and second level spells also beat out the fighter in terms of battlefield control and utility.

Thats due to bad design on WotC's part. And its really obvious in high level games. The fighter is completely dependent on gear and buffs from his party. But most summons outperform him, and as Veekie said, "Ever see a Rogue in Hydra form flank?.

We can say, yes its a team game, so lets just let the fighter PC do its thing ... except its a similar to situations where a special needs child is put in the same setting with average kids; it becomes restrictive for the norms, and very dependant on how 'nice' said kids are. Rarely do people like holding back so a less able person does not feel diminished.

Its worse in D&D. If your character brings very little to the table, or can't perform at the same level as other PCs, you either become an onlooker or a liability if you insist on entering combat and dying/almost dying frequently.

And thats why the class keeps getting fixes so often.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2011, 09:43:19 AM »
@ Gods_Trick
Exactly such thinking is making the fighter suck.
I won't argue because it's true.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2011, 10:00:27 AM »
Hi Welcome

Teamwork means working as a team, not propping up the gimp.

The reason why summons are considered good tanks is because you don't have a vested interest in their survival. They still die in 1-2 rounds like everything else. Now they can actually outperform gimpy beatsticks, like Fighters, but that's not the point.
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If you hear this music, run.

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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2011, 10:07:15 AM »

@ Gods_Trick
Exactly such thinking is making the fighter suck.
I won't argue because it's true.

I doubt we're making the class do anything. Its just as it is.

If I were playing with friends, I can play anything I want, even if its weak or broken, because my friends know I'm telling a story with that character. The fluff matters. in an online game, or with gamers who aren't friends first, don't be a liability.
 
Sunic tends to hyperbole in his role as Commander of the Bitter & Jaded, but is correct; in a goal driven game spending effort propping up weak players is a symptom of mismah in gaming style or ability.


Sunic_Flames

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2011, 10:11:15 AM »
Hi Welcome

That wasn't hyperbole. In fact, most of what I say isn't. Certainly, more than others claim.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2011, 10:14:50 AM »

@ Gods_Trick
Exactly such thinking is making the fighter suck.
I won't argue because it's true.

I doubt we're making the class do anything. Its just as it is.

If I were playing with friends, I can play anything I want, even if its weak or broken, because my friends know I'm telling a story with that character. The fluff matters. in an online game, or with gamers who aren't friends first, don't be a liability.
 
Sunic tends to hyperbole in his role as Commander of the Bitter & Jaded, but is correct; in a goal driven game spending effort propping up weak players is a symptom of mismah in gaming style or ability.


Yeah, well the thing is, when you see Fighter, you assume it's a class that'd make you good at fighting.
However, practically everyone else makes a better Fighter than a Fighter once you get to even mid levels, with  moderate investment. Except they're also their main role.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2011, 10:54:08 AM »
Hi Welcome
Oh, thank you.

Quote
Teamwork means working as a team, not propping up the gimp.
By "gimp" you mean what? Anything that's not a caster?

Quote
The reason why summons are considered good tanks is because you don't have a vested interest in their survival. They still die in 1-2 rounds like everything else. Now they can actually outperform gimpy beatsticks, like Fighters, but that's not the point.
Banishment! Or Protection from.../Magic Circle against.... Does Dispel work on summoned creatures?
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

veekie

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2011, 11:12:21 AM »
Banishment! Or Protection from.../Magic Circle against.... Does Dispel work on summoned creatures?
The enemy spent their action casting that spell on your summon, you got your slot's worth. Compare to the enemy hitting your fighter with say...Sleep at low levels, or Dominate at high. They both go down in one spell, at similar odds, but one is easily replaceable.

EDIT: of course, Protection From [Something] does nothing. Magic Circle is nice, except if your summon is keeping your enemy within a Magic Circle, you also got your money's worth.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 11:14:16 AM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2011, 11:17:53 AM »
The caster spend a spell and an action to summon a "beatstick" who will vaporize in a couple of rounds and can't go too far from the caster.
The fighter is always there and can go where he wants. Also he can talk strategy with his teammates.

EDIT: What summoning spells are we talking about?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 11:29:02 AM by Anarchy_Kanya »
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

veekie

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2011, 11:29:11 AM »
The caster spend a spell and an action to summon a "beatstick" who will vaporize in a couple of rounds and can't go too far from the caster.
The fighter is always there and can go where he wants. Also he can talk strategy with his teammates.
The bolded part is the important part in combat. Everything vaporises at the same rate anyway, so duration matters less.
However, the issue is why FIGHTERS suck, rather than why melee sucks(if you see my post on page 1, it cover melee in general). Why fighters suck compared to other melee types is because feat chains peak in usefulness early on, and sharply decline after. There are no increases in capability except BAB, hp and a single good save. If they choose the wrong tactic to focus on(e.g. grappling), they're screwed, and bad, because they can't switch modes, and they can't focus on two tactics to keep them both adequate.

On the other hand, unlike the monk, they do have the ability to focus upon a single tactic and use it to great effect(usually ubercharging, archery or using one of the fighter variants to the exclusion of anything else)
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2011, 11:33:56 AM »

The caster spend a spell and an action to summon a "beatstick" who will vaporize in a couple of rounds and can't go too far from the caster.
The fighter is always there and can go where he wants. Also he can talk strategy with his teammates.

Lets clarify, are we debating, or do you feel, I dunno, attacked for your beliefs?

Cause we like to teach less experienced gamers here, but we often get overzealous.

As in reference to your post, yes, the fighter is a better character than the summoned monster. For purpose of combat, you don't need to be the better character, you need the better beatstick.  

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2011, 11:38:21 AM »
@ veekie
The fighter doesn't have enough feats to cover two fighting styles/tactics?
I tought that this is his forte - having more then one trick up his sleave (in combat).

Quote
Lets clarify, are we debating, or do you feel, I dunno, attacked for your beliefs?
Don't worry. I don't feel attacked. I know that fighters suck in comparison to casters. I'm just saying that it's not necessarily as bad as you think.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2011, 11:48:18 AM »
The fighter's role in a party is easily replaceable by a druid, druid's animal companion, cleric, duskblade, warblade, barbarian, hexblade etc.

Most of the stuff I mentioned above has some sort of ability to self-buff and has fewer venerabilities, most of the stuff above doesn't require a huge amount of optimizing to be effective, and most of the stuff above is much more useful outside of combat.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 11:51:06 AM by ninjarabbit »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2011, 12:00:24 PM »
Quote
Teamwork means working as a team, not propping up the gimp.
By "gimp" you mean what? Anything that's not a caster?

Gimp = Fighter.

Resource sink who gives nothing back = Fighter.

Summons, meanwhile give something back, and you don't care if they die.

An average animal companion probably offers more than a Fighter. As for "talking strategy", well they can't do that without metagaming anyways, so that's about the same.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2011, 12:01:44 PM »
@ veekie
The fighter doesn't have enough feats to cover two fighting styles/tactics?
I tought that this is his forte - having more then one trick up his sleave (in combat).
Compare the investments.
If you're making a reach weapon, opportunity attack, tripping fighter. Reach weapons are almost universally two handed(which is a good thing of course), eliminating shield use and TWF, you would need high dexterity to take advantage of Combat Reflexes, even higher strength to hit and successfully trip, you need Int 13+ to qualify for Combat Expertise and then Improved Trip. On top of that you want to deal damage, so you probably got Power Attack. This leaves you good at tripping...oh Medium sized creatures with ok strength. Monsters still get you good from size and hideous strength. So you get size increases, reach increasers. That's your feats up to level 10+ mostly already accounted for, and you're just decent at tripping, not quite effective yet. And then the barbarian takes half your feats, the same buffs, rages, and then trips you the hell away instead.

And remember, thats ONE effective combat trick. Feats are nastily narrow in application, they rarely synergise well. Compare if you're actually two weapon fighting. You have your TWF feat tax, then you need Pounce(the easiest access is a barbarian alternate class feature) or mounted combat(which is itself feat intensive and your mount dies easily all the same) so you can get there to deliver those attacks. You also need two magic weapons(one of the most expensive magic item types), and well damn, strength doesn't add to TWF damage that good and you have a high dexterity so heavy armor is out too.

God help you if you decide to be a grappler.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2011, 12:18:56 PM »

  A lot of it is relevant to your gaming group/circle. My first experience of D&D was with a grognard that never let the game go past 3rd level. I spent a year thinking Wizards were too weak to keep up with Fighters  :lol

  So if its not an issue in your group, awesome. But on the boards, D&D is played on the bleeding edge, which means a high degree of self suffiency.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2011, 12:24:28 PM »
I play only PbP/PbF and I didn't notice this. Guess I'm lucky.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

lans

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2011, 12:40:52 PM »
@ veekie
The fighter doesn't have enough feats to cover two fighting styles/tactics?
I tought that this is his forte - having more then one trick up his sleave (in combat).
The fighter has to be very careful with his feat, race, skill selection and wealth, and have Aptitude weapons, probably flaws, selling his soul, and worshiping some sort of eldritch abomination. In order to cover 2 fighting styles and not being a gimp.

Focusing on Boomerang Daze, and taking Combat Reflexes gives you a 'tripper' role, and a ranged combat one.

Outside of that, ask your DM  to 'gestalt' Normal Fighter with Kensai, Targeteer, and Puglist.

Banishment! Or Protection from.../Magic Circle against.... Does Dispel work on summoned creatures?
The enemy spent their action casting that spell on your summon, you got your slot's worth. Compare to the enemy hitting your fighter with say...Sleep at low levels, or Dominate at high. They both go down in one spell, at similar odds, but one is easily replaceable.

Counterpoint- The caster all ready had Magic Circle up to say shove it to enchanters and summoners.

Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar