Author Topic: Why Fighters Suck Redux.  (Read 59567 times)

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zugschef

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #180 on: February 22, 2011, 12:01:11 PM »
Sorry for my retardness but could you expand on that?
Shadeseraph and i have already done that. i advise you to read the last few posts in this thread.

veekie

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #181 on: February 22, 2011, 12:03:49 PM »
Quote
If we want the fighter to be a class by himself, then we need to figure which "combat theme" he is supposed to cover.
Say what? Isn't the fighter, which his many bonus feats, supposed to be, you know, the class that lets you make whatever "combat theme" you want? ???
I mean yes, the fighter maybe sucks (from an optimizers point of view) but the game isn't about "who has the bigger...sword". It's about having fun. And many (mainly new) players don't care about what sucks and what don't. If I want to make a build/concept that needs as many feats as I can get because it's so feat heavy, then the fighter is the right choice. If you're so pro at this game that you won't pick anything that's not 100% effective, then pick Warblade and thank God that you have ToB.


The problem is that, apart from some very specific builds (first version of Lockdown is the only one that comes to mind atm), there really aren't any builds that are so feat-intensive as to reward being a fighter for more than a couple levels.

Simply put, anything a fighter can do, another class can do better, as they get feats and class features as opposed to just feats.
Yeah, for a 'build ye olde combat style' you might want to look to feats with effects more like combat charms of Exalted.
Practically all feats do is add small or large numbers to your existing capabilities, and sorry to say, Fighters existing capabilities can be obtained by anyone who gets the same weapon.
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Shadeseraph

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #182 on: February 22, 2011, 12:08:02 PM »
Quote
being supposed to potentially be any "combat theme" IS the fail.
Sorry for my retardness but could you expand on that?

Because in a class based system, having two or more classes with the same "theme" is bad game design. You shouldn't have a barbarian class and a class which allows you to be a barbarian. It's confusing for the player and leads to powergaming. What you want to do, that is, being able to create a "quasi-barbarian" with some different abilities (for example, a Shock trooper with full armor) should be covered by multiclassing, not by a class.

That's why I advocate that either martial classes or old combat classes have to go, as every old combat class overlaps with one of the three martial classes. Of course, if the martial classes are the ones to leave, I'd like the old classes made more interesting, so I try to remodel them to my liking when I do that.

That's what happens to the fighter compared to any other combat class. The lack of focus makes it redundant. At most, I can see it as a glue between concepts.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 12:13:39 PM by Shadeseraph »
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

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Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

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[/spoiler]

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #183 on: February 22, 2011, 12:16:09 PM »
Okay.
So. I think that the fighter is supposed to be the "simple" class for starting players. You just pick feats and you're done. And you have more then enough to specialize in two or three combat tactics.
For optimizers it's obviously a "fail" class for that exact reason.
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[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Kajhera

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #184 on: February 22, 2011, 12:29:14 PM »
Okay.
So. I think that the fighter is supposed to be the "simple" class for starting players. You just pick feats and you're done. And you have more then enough to specialize in two or three combat tactics.
For optimizers it's obviously a "fail" class for that exact reason.

As I got better at making characters I liked the fighter more. As a new player I tried to leap from branch to branch in full plate.  ???

zugschef

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #185 on: February 22, 2011, 12:31:35 PM »
Okay.
So. I think that the fighter is supposed to be the "simple" class for starting players. You just pick feats and you're done. And you have more then enough to specialize in two or three combat tactics.
For optimizers it's obviously a "fail" class for that exact reason.
actually the fighter fails even more, if you are new to the game...

but again, that's not the point i'm arguing. i say that warblade and fighter do not fit in among the other classes, because other classes have concepts and these two do not.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #186 on: February 22, 2011, 12:31:44 PM »
Quote
If we want the fighter to be a class by himself, then we need to figure which "combat theme" he is supposed to cover.
Say what? Isn't the fighter, which his many bonus feats, supposed to be, you know, the class that lets you make whatever "combat theme" you want? ???
I mean yes, the fighter maybe sucks (from an optimizers point of view) but the game isn't about "who has the bigger...sword". It's about having fun. And many (mainly new) players don't care about what sucks and what don't. If I want to make a build/concept that needs as many feats as I can get because it's so feat heavy, then the fighter is the right choice. If you're so pro at this game that you won't pick anything that's not 100% effective, then pick Warblade and thank God that you have ToB.

Skiping past fail and baiting at Sunics part.

Hi Welcome

You're outclassed again Jarona.

And if we were talking most effective only, that's not a Fighter or a Warblade, it's a goddamned Cleric or Druid (lol see what I did there?), so you still Fail.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #187 on: February 22, 2011, 12:39:00 PM »
Quote
If we want the fighter to be a class by himself, then we need to figure which "combat theme" he is supposed to cover.
Say what? Isn't the fighter, which his many bonus feats, supposed to be, you know, the class that lets you make whatever "combat theme" you want? ???
I mean yes, the fighter maybe sucks (from an optimizers point of view) but the game isn't about "who has the bigger...sword". It's about having fun. And many (mainly new) players don't care about what sucks and what don't. If I want to make a build/concept that needs as many feats as I can get because it's so feat heavy, then the fighter is the right choice. If you're so pro at this game that you won't pick anything that's not 100% effective, then pick Warblade and thank God that you have ToB.

Skiping past fail and baiting at Sunics part.

Hi Welcome

You're outclassed again Jarona.

And if we were talking most effective only, that's not a Fighter or a Warblade, it's a goddamned Cleric or Druid (lol see what I did there?), so you still Fail.
Yeah, smite me more. See if I care. :rollseyes
You're getting delusional and paranoid.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #188 on: February 22, 2011, 12:41:15 PM »
Quote
If we want the fighter to be a class by himself, then we need to figure which "combat theme" he is supposed to cover.
Say what? Isn't the fighter, which his many bonus feats, supposed to be, you know, the class that lets you make whatever "combat theme" you want? ???
I mean yes, the fighter maybe sucks (from an optimizers point of view) but the game isn't about "who has the bigger...sword". It's about having fun. And many (mainly new) players don't care about what sucks and what don't. If I want to make a build/concept that needs as many feats as I can get because it's so feat heavy, then the fighter is the right choice. If you're so pro at this game that you won't pick anything that's not 100% effective, then pick Warblade and thank God that you have ToB.

Skiping past fail and baiting at Sunics part.

Hi Welcome

You're outclassed again Jarona.

And if we were talking most effective only, that's not a Fighter or a Warblade, it's a goddamned Cleric or Druid (lol see what I did there?), so you still Fail.
Yeah, smite me more. See if I care. :rollseyes
You're getting delusional and paranoid.

Still wrong, and also devolving back into herp derp and Fail there Jarona. What happened, did your family not accept your sex change?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Shadeseraph

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #189 on: February 22, 2011, 12:43:37 PM »
Okay.
So. I think that the fighter is supposed to be the "simple" class for starting players. You just pick feats and you're done. And you have more then enough to specialize in two or three combat tactics.
For optimizers it's obviously a "fail" class for that exact reason.

The advantage of the game is that covering a concept is pretty easy, given that most concepts are vague at most. It's only when you want to make that concept effective when you have to pick long chains of feats. In fact, I'd say that the fighter is far more optimizer oriented than the warblade, because one maneuver is inherently usable, but it's pretty difficult to improve it, while a single feat doesn't grant a benefit large enough to make a difference but a long chain of feats can blow the world in a single strike. It encourages powergaming. Which the warblade does not.

In any case, this discussion only matters when we are speaking about optimization. If your DM "cuddles" (as some other people here says) you and no one optimizes, it doesn't matter which class you take. In fact, the only thing that really matters is the name of the class (as you are identifying your character with that name) and maybe the names of your abilities. I'd argue that this kind of game would be more suited for storyteller systems, but I understand that many people need the "solidity" of a relatively rigid system to help them make choices.

Anyway, I don't think it's that hard to find a concept for the warrior class while keeping, at least partially, what you like about the class (its simplicity) and its flavor.
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #190 on: February 22, 2011, 01:00:09 PM »
Okay.
So. I think that the fighter is supposed to be the "simple" class for starting players. You just pick feats and you're done. And you have more then enough to specialize in two or three combat tactics.
For optimizers it's obviously a "fail" class for that exact reason.

The advantage of the game is that covering a concept is pretty easy, given that most concepts are vague at most. It's only when you want to make that concept effective when you have to pick long chains of feats. In fact, I'd say that the fighter is far more optimizer oriented than the warblade, because one maneuver is inherently usable, but it's pretty difficult to improve it, while a single feat doesn't grant a benefit large enough to make a difference but a long chain of feats can blow the world in a single strike. It encourages powergaming. Which the warblade does not.

In any case, this discussion only matters when we are speaking about optimization. If your DM "cuddles" (as some other people here says) you and no one optimizes, it doesn't matter which class you take. In fact, the only thing that really matters is the name of the class (as you are identifying your character with that name) and maybe the names of your abilities. I'd argue that this kind of game would be more suited for storyteller systems, but I understand that many people need the "solidity" of a relatively rigid system to help them make choices.

Anyway, I don't think it's that hard to find a concept for the warrior class while keeping, at least partially, what you like about the class (its simplicity) and its flavor.
That's the beauty of the fighter. He can be anything. A paladin must be a paladin. A barbarian must be a barbarian. Etc.
But okay. I understand what you are saying.

Quote
Still wrong, and also devolving back into herp derp and Fail there Jarona. What happened, did your family not accept your sex change?
What's the matter. Did you have a tough day, so now you have to repair your low self-esteem? :eh
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #191 on: February 22, 2011, 01:11:56 PM »

That's the beauty of the fighter. He can be anything. A paladin must be a paladin. A barbarian must be a barbarian. Etc.
But okay. I understand what you are saying.

And as I said earlier, an intentional choice of the developers. Thats way back though, and between the Knight, Swashbuckler, Marshall, Warblade, and everything else thats been published since, we've certainly moved past the Fighter being required as a concept placeholder. I've always seen the Fighter as weapon skill reduced to its essential basics. Whether that can be translated mechanically remains to be seen.

What's the matter. Did you have a tough day, so now you have to repair your low self-esteem? :eh

You keep picking up chicks/guys Sunic  ;) Didn't you and Betrayor have that same vibe going on?

Shadeseraph

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #192 on: February 22, 2011, 01:22:18 PM »

That's the beauty of the fighter. He can be anything. A paladin must be a paladin. A barbarian must be a barbarian. Etc.
But okay. I understand what you are saying.

I'll take your word for it.

And as I said earlier, an intentional choice of the developers. Thats way back though, and between the Knight, Swashbuckler, Marshall, Warblade, and everything else thats been published since, we've certainly moved past the Fighter being required as a concept placeholder.
Pretty much. That's the reason I called the current fighter "glue". His actual usefulness is to provide other concepts tools to specialize or to digress from the concept standard. I don't like that too much. Multiclassing should cover that, without having to depend on a "scrappy" class.

I've always seen the Fighter as weapon skill reduced to its essential basics. Whether that can be translated mechanically remains to be seen.
That's... hard to understand. What does "weapon skill reduced to its essential basics" mean?
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #193 on: February 22, 2011, 01:34:40 PM »
I've always seen the Fighter as weapon skill reduced to its essential basics. Whether that can be translated mechanically remains to be seen.
That's... hard to understand. What does "weapon skill reduced to its essential basics" mean?

Good question. One I'm still reducing and defining now.

Think of the gritty fantasy novels that have their protagnist beat enemies with better weapons, fancy fighting styles or gods forbid, combat magic. Its like you're reduced the gamut of combat to killing in the most effective and simplest way.


This makes sense to me as a student of martial arts. Theres a reason why boxers beat kung fu masters.

Does this bear any resemblance to D&D? Not yet, but I want mechanics to do so.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 02:11:51 PM by Gods_Trick »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #194 on: February 22, 2011, 01:39:27 PM »
What's the matter. Did you have a tough day, so now you have to repair your low self-esteem? :eh

I take that as a yes. Perhaps you should pull a ceiling cat and Abundant Step away. Hi Welcome

You keep picking up chicks/guys Sunic  ;) Didn't you and Betrayor have that same vibe going on?

What the fuck are you talking about?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Shadeseraph

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #195 on: February 22, 2011, 01:54:26 PM »
I've always seen the Fighter as weapon skill reduced to its essential basics. Whether that can be translated mechanically remains to be seen.
That's... hard to understand. What does "weapon skill reduced to its essential basics" mean?

Good question. One I'm still reducing and defining now.

Think of the gritty fantasy novels that have their protagnist beat enemies with better weapons, fancy fighting styles or gods forbid, combat magic. Its like you're reduced the gamut of combat to killing in the most effective and simplest way.


This makes sense to me as a student of martial arts. Theres a reason why boxers beat kung fu masters.

Does this bear any resemblance to D&D? Not yet, but I want mechanics to do so.

I think I understand it. If I do, we have a very similar idea. I interpret it as being able to use the best tool (martial art, weapon, whatever) for every situation without resorting to magic. The fighter would be to combatants what the wizard is to casters or the archivist to divine casters.

Something like this? The other interpretation I can get is the idea of the mythical "absolute" martial art. One which trumps over every other by means of being strictly superior. But that's unlikely, as the idea is to make it playable and interesting, not just a god mode sue.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 01:56:02 PM by Shadeseraph »
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #196 on: February 22, 2011, 01:57:46 PM »
What's the matter. Did you have a tough day, so now you have to repair your low self-esteem? :eh

I take that as a yes. Perhaps you should pull a ceiling cat and Abundant Step away. Hi Welcome
I take that as a yes. Perhaps you should pull your dick out of your mouth and look the truth in the eyes - You're not impressing me, neither hurt my feelings. Is the "Hi Welcome" supposed to insult me? ??? You repeat that stupid sentense quite a lot and it lost it's appeal long ago. Find something new, 'couse I'm starting to be disapointed with you. :pout

Quote
I think I understand it. If I do, we have a very similar idea. I interpret it as being able to use the best tool (martial art, weapon, whatever) for every situation without resorting to magic. The fighter would be to combatants what the wizard is to casters or the archivist to divine casters.
This. I approve. :clap
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #197 on: February 22, 2011, 02:09:41 PM »

I've always seen the Fighter as weapon skill reduced to its essential basics. Whether that can be translated mechanically remains to be seen.
That's... hard to understand. What does "weapon skill reduced to its essential basics" mean?

Good question. One I'm still reducing and defining now.

Think of the gritty fantasy novels that have their protagnist beat enemies with better weapons, fancy fighting styles or gods forbid, combat magic. Its like you're reduced the gamut of combat to killing in the most effective and simplest way.


This makes sense to me as a student of martial arts. Theres a reason why boxers beat kung fu masters.

Does this bear any resemblance to D&D? Not yet, but I want mechanics to do so.

I think I understand it. If I do, we have a very similar idea. I interpret it as being able to use the best tool (martial art, weapon, whatever) for every situation without resorting to magic. The fighter would be to combatants what the wizard is to casters or the archivist to divine casters.

Something like this? The other interpretation I can get is the idea of the mythical "absolute" martial art. One which trumps over every other by means of being strictly superior. But that's unlikely, as the idea is to make it playable and interesting, not just a god mode sue.

Indeed. I think it was reading about Musashi first that really solidified it for me. His original principle was to hit some one fast and hard - so hard he killed better trained better armed samurai. Nitto ryu, philosophy, all that came later. Perfection is simple.

Then I read the Colours of Steel and the protagnist was talking about how to conserve energy in a fight, because swinging a sword many times was very tiring work  :D I remember thinking, 'this is a Fighter. A professional killer that wipes out entire armies expediently, as long as they keep coming.'

Someone able to use whatever, be it a teapot or a sword or a river, to cause death.

You could call it martial arts, but I'm thinking its best expressed as a natural aptitude or something beaten into you. Thats the fluff anyway.

I also think that mechanically the Fighter class will benefit by being seperated from ranged melee and making a separate class called the Archer, badass red coat optional.

Solo

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #198 on: February 22, 2011, 02:52:10 PM »
Okay.
So. I think that the fighter is supposed to be the "simple" class for starting players. You just pick feats and you're done.
Except that without much experience, you end up picking trap feats and struggle against normal encounters.

Ever play a dagger throwing fighter going up against a Hyda? It's not pretty.

Quote
And you have more then enough to specialize in two or three combat tactics.
The fighter class is the most versatile combat class in the game, with the ability to specialize in many different styles of combat from archery to two weapon fighting to grappling.

Unfortunately, those styles suck, so all he's really able to do is whiff ineffectually at the enemy in a number of different ways unless you powergame... which generally involves specializing in a specific combat style.

Quote
For optimizers it's obviously a "fail" class for that exact reason.
For optimizers, it is obviously a "fail" class because it cannot fulfill its intended role without serious optimization.

Don't believe me? Make a level 14 TWF fighter with core only material. I'll bring a level 13 sorcerer, and I'm sure we could find someone to play a Cleric or Druid. We'll throw them up against a wide variety of CR 13 encounters and see what happens.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 02:54:10 PM by Solo »

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Shadeseraph

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Re: Why Fighters Suck Redux.
« Reply #199 on: February 22, 2011, 02:53:10 PM »
Quote
I think I understand it. If I do, we have a very similar idea. I interpret it as being able to use the best tool (martial art, weapon, whatever) for every situation without resorting to magic. The fighter would be to combatants what the wizard is to casters or the archivist to divine casters.
This. I approve. :clap

The problem is that the current fighter doesn't do that, and in fact is the very opposite of that idea. A fighter chooses a given style and overspecializes in it, never looking at an alternative. I've been able to build a fighter with a decent range of options (3-4), but it required dipping 5 different classes over 6 levels (Warblade, crusader, cloistered cleric, barbarian and psychic warrior (this one to regain feats)) and taking some liberties (Jotunbrud counting for Knockback, taking the thicket of blades stance at crusader lvl 1) because by itself the warrior could, at most, be competent in 2 options (Bullrushing + fear).

Instead, I'd rather go for the idea of a fighter which, knowing what he is going to fight against, prepares accordingly. Maybe he's going to fight a dragon, so he picks his bow, gets prepared to the idea of throwing himself onto the back of the dragon in mid-flight, and practices a couple of times, readying himself to jump at the first sight of a single flame. Maybe the next time he knows he's fighting a crowd of goblins. This time he chooses a huge hammer, readies a stance to keep his ground, and starts motivating himself for some quick battle shouts to scare the critters. And so on.

This is the only way I can find to make the fighter able to contribute to fights, keep being himself and not a barbarian/ranger/knight rip-off, avoiding being a generalist with a little bit of everything but nothing working and avoid being a barbarian/ranger/knight gestalt which pwnzorwtf the other classes.

Indeed. I think it was reading about Musashi first that really solidified it for me. His original principle was to hit some one fast and hard - so hard he killed better trained better armed samurai. Nitto ryu, philosophy, all that came later. Perfection is simple.

Then I read the Colours of Steel and the protagnist was talking about how to conserve energy in a fight, because swinging a sword many times was very tiring work  :D I remember thinking, 'this is a Fighter. A professional killer that wipes out entire armies expediently, as long as they keep coming.'

Someone able to use whatever, be it a teapot or a sword or a river, to cause death.

You could call it martial arts, but I'm thinking its best expressed as a natural aptitude or something beaten into you. Thats the fluff anyway.

I also think that mechanically the Fighter class will benefit by being seperated from ranged melee and making a separate class called the Archer, badass red coat optional.

That's the second interpretation, then. I can't say I like it. I like the variety in martial arts precisely because there isn't an absolute. There is room for variety, because different tactics and techniques are strong against a certain set of other tactics.

I can understand the niche, though. Instead of focusing on the "flavor" differences between combat classes, and instead of trying to figure how to fit the warrior, you assume there is another, uncovered niche there: Not other class focuses solely on fighting. The barbarian also has the idea of wilderness in it, the paladin is also a talker. There isn't a "pure" warrior. So, if there is one, that class should be the absolutely best at it.

I'm sorry, but I don't like it. I like having different classes with different flavor, each one with his strong and weak points, better suited to one or other situation.
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