Author Topic: Making Sword and Board viable.  (Read 2380 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Making Sword and Board viable.
« on: February 08, 2011, 10:34:48 PM »
This came up on the GitP forums, but I thought I'd have fun with it.  The idea here is a series of houserules that make Sword and Board viable.  Currently, only shield only is viable, and only when using very specific abilities (Shield Counter, Shield Block, Shield Slam, Shield Charge).  The idea is for sword and board to be roughly on par with TWF and THF, at least enough that it's worth building characters around this idea.  I'm a big fan of shields protecting allies and debuffing enemies, as a way of them being different from TWF and THF while still being useful.  Note also that I generally roll TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into one feat anyway.

1)  Shield Ward is simply a basic rule of shields, not a feat.  Shield bonuses to AC are always bonuses to touch AC, in addition to giving a bonus to resisting Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, and Trip attempts.  Furthermore, the shield bonus increases reflex saves against area effects.  This also applies to feats that increase said bonus (so Shield Specialization also boosts everything else).
2)  The base bonus for all shields other than bucklers is increased by one (so Light shields give +2 to AC and Heavy give +3, for example).

New Feats:

Shield Ally [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Light and Heavy Shields, BAB +1
When you wield a shield, all allies within the area you threaten normally (without reach weapons) gain a bonus to their touch AC, reflex saves against area effects, and checks to resist Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun and Trip attempts equal to your shield bonus.  Note that this bonus does not stack with itself, so if two characters with Shield Ally are next to a third character, that character will take the better of the two bonuses only.  This bonus explicitly stacks with the bonus given by the Shield Block maneuver.

Shield and Pike Style [Fighter, Weapon Style] (note: this is a combination of the existing Shield and Pike style feat with the Phallanx Fighting feat)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Light and Heavy Shields, Proficiency with Simple and Martial Weapons, Base Attack Bonus +1, Shield Ally
You may wield a Piercing Two Handed Polearm with Reach with which you have proficiency in one hand if you are wielding a light, heavy, or exotic shield in the other hand.
If you are fighting with a polearm in one hand and a shield in the other and are adjacent to an ally who is also doing so, you may form a Shield Wall with all allies who are doing so.  All members of the shield wall gain a bonus to their touch AC, reflex saves against area effects, and checks to resist Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun and Trip attempts equal to the number of members of the shield wall adjacent to them.  This bonus stacks with the bonus from Shield Ally where applicable.  

Agile Shield Fighter [Fighter]  (Note: update of the existing feat)
Prerequisites:  Proficiency in Light and Heavy Shields, Improved Shield Bash
Your penalty for fighting with two weapons simultaneously when one of those weapons is a shield bash is -2.  As part of a full round attack, you may make a single attack with your shield bash in addition to your mainhand attacks.  If your BAB is +6 or higher, you make a second attack with your shield bash at an additional -5 to hit.  If your BAB is +11 or higher, you may make a third attack with your shield bash at an additional -10 to hit.

Sword and Board Style [Fighter, Tactical, Style]
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Light and Heavy Shields, Improved Shield Bash, Agile Shield Fighter, proficiency with simple and martial weapons, BAB +6
You may use the following 3 tactical maneuvers
Followup Slam:  When you critically hit an opponent with a weapon other than your shield while also wielding a shield, you may make a shield bash as a free action.  If this attack hits, your opponent is stunned for one round (Fortitude Save Negates, DC is strength based).
Implacable Advance:  When fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise while wielding a shield, your shield bonus is doubled.  
Relentless Assault:  When your stun, daze, slow, or trip an opponent as a result of a shield slam attack, you gain a bonus to hit equal to you're shield's bonus on all attacks you make with melee weapons other than your shield for one round.

Shielded Collision [Fighter]
Prerequisites:  Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Improved Bull Rush, BAB +6
When you hit an opponent with a Shield Bash while using Power Attack, you may make a free Bull Rush, with a bonus equal to your Power Attack damage bonus.  You do not provoke an attack of Opportunity, nor may you move with the enemy you knock backwards.  If the enemy cannot move back the full distance (due to an obstacle, usually) they are slowed for one round (as the spell, Fortitude negates, DC is strength based).  A character with the Knockback feat may not use that feat with any attack where this feat is used.

It's a little clunky, but it might make shields into a valid style (and I'm hoping both Sword and Board style and Shield and Spear style will be somewhat useful).  You've got a nice combination of mobility, debuffing, and ally protection... not as much damage as THF, and you can't be quite as much of a crit monkey as TWF, but it's got its own place I think.  Thoughts?

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 10:50:04 PM by JaronK »

Littha

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2155
    • Email
Re: Making Sword and Board viable.
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2011, 11:59:26 PM »
I did do some things with Spartan fighting styles a couple of weeks back that had some interesting shield uses. 
Here, they may be a little overpowered though and sword/spear isn't the same as sword and board but I thought I might as well bring it up.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Making Sword and Board viable.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 10:27:56 AM »
All in all, I like it.  I'd suggest formatting the post a bit to make it easier to read, but that's just aesthetic.  Anyway:

I like the basic bonuses.  That's a good boost.  Personally, rather than saying "Reflex saves against AoEs", I'd suggest only having it apply to damage-dealing AoEs.  It doesn't make much sense to me to have it apply to Grease or Web.

Shield Ally is nice, but should it take a feat?  You're basically spending a feat to help others.  Granted, in a group setting, keeping others alive is nice, but I don't think it's good enough to cost a feat.  I'd either beef up the feat, wrap it in with another, or tone it down and give out the benefit for free.  I mean, this really only applies to other meleers who want to stand side-by-side with the fighter.  The rogue will want to flank and will get no benefit without Adaptive Flanker (or whatever that feat is called) or Island of Blades.  The arcane casters will not want to be anywhere near the fighter unless they're caught off guard.

I like Shield and Pike Style, Agile Shield Fighter, Sword and Board Style, and Shielded Collision .  Implacable Advance is good to the point that if you have Combat Reflexes, you have next to no reason not to continually take a -1 penalty to attacks.  I don't know that I'd call it overpowered, but there's a new reason to consider Combat Expertise other than for Improved Trip.


All in all, I guess I'd have to try and build a fighter at a few key levels and see what he looks like before I can pass judgment.  Other than what I mentioned above, my only other complain is the sheer number of feats it requires to pull this off.  Maybe pure fighter with a small amount of dips is sufficient. 
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
    • Email
Re: Making Sword and Board viable.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 10:53:47 AM »
I like the work you've done but I feel like you didn't go quite far enough in a lot of areas.

Shield Ally [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Light and Heavy Shields, BAB +1
When you wield a shield, all allies within the area you threaten normally (without reach weapons) gain a bonus to their touch AC, reflex saves against area effects, and checks to resist Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun and Trip attempts equal to your shield bonus.  Note that this bonus does not stack with itself, so if two characters with Shield Ally are next to a third character, that character will take the better of the two bonuses only.  This bonus explicitly stacks with the bonus given by the Shield Block maneuver.

Why doesn't the bonus stack with itself? You didn't bother applying a type, why add that sentence restricting it? If two people are holding their shields in front of you, you are more protected than if just one of them was

Agile Shield Fighter [Fighter]  (Note: update of the existing feat)
Prerequisites:  Proficiency in Light and Heavy Shields, Improved Shield Bash
Your penalty for fighting with two weapons simultaneously when one of those weapons is a shield bash is -2.  As part of a full round attack, you may make a single attack with your shield bash in addition to your mainhand attacks.  If your BAB is +6 or higher, you make a second attack with your shield bash at an additional -5 to hit.  If your BAB is +11 or higher, you may make a third attack with your shield bash at an additional -10 to hit.

I never liked how hard it is to get rid of that pointless -2 (It's easier to attack with two weapons, not harder), but I suppose working within precedent nets you stigmas like that. This feat is easily an improvement over the alternative 3 feats, but I don't know why you stopped at 3 attacks. Why not go all the way to BAB +16?

Sword and Board Style [Fighter, Tactical, Style]
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Light and Heavy Shields, Improved Shield Bash, Agile Shield Fighter, proficiency with simple and martial weapons, BAB +6
You may use the following 3 tactical maneuvers
Followup Slam:  When you critically hit an opponent with a weapon other than your shield while also wielding a shield, you may make a shield bash as a free action.  If this attack hits, your opponent is stunned for one round (Fortitude Save Negates, DC is strength based).
Implacable Advance:  When fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise while wielding a shield, your shield bonus is doubled.  
Relentless Assault:  When your stun, daze, slow, or trip an opponent as a result of a shield slam attack, you gain a bonus to hit equal to you're shield's bonus on all attacks you make with melee weapons other than your shield for one round.

Why not add two things to followup slam:
DC is Damage based not just Strength based, making it very difficult to save against (Which is perfectly fair considering it only activates on a crit followed by a succesful shield bash)

and

"If the opponent is immune to stunning they are instead dazed for one round."

Daze last I checked is just Stun's little brother but fewer things are immune to it.

Shielded Collision [Fighter]
Prerequisites:  Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Improved Bull Rush, BAB +6
When you hit an opponent with a Shield Bash while using Power Attack, you may make a free Bull Rush, with a bonus equal to your Power Attack damage bonus.  You do not provoke an attack of Opportunity, nor may you move with the enemy you knock backwards.  If the enemy cannot move back the full distance (due to an obstacle, usually) they are slowed for one round (as the spell, Fortitude negates, DC is strength based).  A character with the Knockback feat may not use that feat with any attack where this feat is used.

Once again I suggest making the save DC damage based rather than strength based. It lets a mundane character optimize their saves (Which they have a hard time doing otherwise) in the same way they optimize everything else, rewarding them for focusing their build.

Also while I know the standard DC 10 + etcetera formula for saves, I'm not sure I completely understand how these saves on these feats are calculated. The problem I'm having is that you're saying they're strength-based, which is fine, but you're not saying what they add OTHER than strength and OTHER than 10.

So a spell is usually 10 + Spell level + Ability mod. Maneuvers are the same. Yours are only 10 + Str, except for the slowing one, which a player has to assume you mean that one is 10 + 3 (Spell level of Slow) + Str. Even Stunning fist has 10 + Half character level + Wis. In the equation 10 + X + Ability mod, what is your X?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 11:03:53 AM by Bloody Initiate »
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Making Sword and Board viable.
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 11:56:38 AM »
I like the basic bonuses.  That's a good boost.  Personally, rather than saying "Reflex saves against AoEs", I'd suggest only having it apply to damage-dealing AoEs.  It doesn't make much sense to me to have it apply to Grease or Web.
Or only against bursts. I could see a shield helping against web, but you'd have to drop the shield to avoid the penalties.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]