So, continuing with the smiting of imbeciles.
Jaelbabble here. And in this episode of Translators we will be covering a different, yet very similar fuckwit.
God, hard to keep up with this thread. I just want to be clear Sunic... you think Necropolitan Whispergnomes are TO, but Ice Devils that the DM has customized to attack you and are waiting for you while buried to their heads in snow and are well above your level are perfectly standard? Really? After your T-Rex comment I think it's clear that YOU are the one who plays at what everyone else would call TO levels.
It is perfectly acceptable to be perfectly optimized towards a single, very narrow trick. But if the enemy is at all competent at their jobs, or is meant to be remotely difficult, or is found at home, or does anything other than put its head on the chopping block for me OMFG CR 18 WARBLADE SPARKLY VAMPIRES!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111
I mean damn, I was talking about a 3-5ish level character (the armor spikes were a later in the game thing). You never actually specified your little wall scenario's level, though you said +1 Eager Armor Spikes of Warning are half your WBL, which suggests it's somewhat lower level... what level are we even talking about? As for why I picked that race combo... that's what I most recently played when I was a stealthy character. In a less optimized game, Halfling usually gets the job done (but you rarely see enemies with Lifesight in most games). As for the Dark template, you can purchase that with a single item, so why are we assuming that it's so hard to sneak around without exposing yourself? What is this fictional place where a bunch of guards can hide behind a low wall successfully, but no one can possibly get in to a position to look over said wall without exposing themself automatically... and why don't the PCs take one look at such a position and say "wow, this is an obvious ambush, we're leaving."
I fail at reading comprehension forever, but I am continuing to post as if I have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion! Fear me, as I Haunt Shift into your computer! Oh and spending 72% or 38% of my total wealth, ever on a single item to grant me the Dark template, just so I can be marginally better at a narrow and ineffective trick is a worthwhile investment I say, a worthwhile investment!
But seriously, what race/class combo you use depends on optimization level of the game. In the majority of games I've seen, Halfling with Darkstalker is sufficient (and to the guy who thought dog patrols help, Darkstalker avoids scent). Go up a bit, and Whispergnome with Darkstalker deals with anything (Darkstalker is kind of a given). In the sort of games where everyone's a crazy paranoid caster spamming touchsight where the monsters are optimized to have full spot ranks all the time and creatures have Mindsight constantly, yeah, you need a Necropolitan Whispergnome with Lifesight, Darkstalker, and maybe even a Mindbender dip for Mindsight, and heck if the DM's optimizing to spot you Item Familiar becomes something to bring in. After all, this is a game where everything's a T1 class or ridiculously optimized specifically to go against you. Heck, if you give me a level and the types of enemies expected, I could give you a specific optimization level stealther who fits in such a game.
I still am completely incapable of reading the posts, which clearly detail the parameters of the games involved, but I am still blabbering on as if I have something of value to contribute to the discussion!
As to being undead: it's great. I know you play games where everything hits like crazy and is pumped up WELL beyond the way the game is meant to be played (and don't seem to realize that's not standard) but consider for the moment that a stealther class usually has d6 or d8 HD. As such, going Necropolitan near a Desecrated Evil Alter and getting D12+2 HP/HD is equivalent to having 18-20 Con, except you can dump your con score and thus have less MAD. Do it using a level 8 Dread Necromancer or a UA Variant Necromancer is even better, as it's now D12+4 HP/HD and you get a free enhancement bonus to dex and str (the former matters early on until you can reasonably afford a +6 item, the latter is just sorta handy in general). And yes, Disguise means nobody hits you with specific anti-undead stuff. It's great that way, and it's one of few things that True Seeing just fails against entirely.
It is completely acceptable to get 1d12+4 HD, and free +4 Str/Dex items, but encountering enemies in their homes is +5 CR! Fear my unstoppable stealth and board skills! And don't you dare use enemies that can actually hit hard, even though most enemies totally can, because that's SO UNFAIR!
And really, why do you say only casters can have enough initiative? Were those guards all Wizards or something? Is your game NOTHING but Wizards? And why are they able to have initiatives that are so insanely high? And why do you think scouting means you leave the party entirely? Remember that Listen and Spot checks have distance based penalties. If the party is 200 feet away, that's a -20 to notice them at all... and virtually no always on detections can hope to spot them. Teleporting back (60 feet, IIRC) and then moving in the first round while the party runs up to you means you're now with them. Not that difficult.
I can assume all manner of crazy shit for myself, but if enemies start making use of a fraction of these tricks I will whine, and flail, and call it +5 CR SPARKLY VAMPIRES!
Look, at the end of the day you have to build any character to do any role in a way that fits the campaign. In a high optimization campaign, you have to pull out all the stops (Shadow Necropolitan Whispergnome Factotum with LA pay down using Darkstalker, Lifesight, and a 1 level dip in Mindbender for Mindsight while pumping his skills with an Item Familiar, grabbing a collar of umbral metamorphosis for an LA free dark template, and a two level dip in Unarmed Swordsage so he can teleport everywhere). In a more normal campaign, you build something more appropriate (Halfling with Darkstalker and a few decent stealth based items). In a low optimization campaign, a Halfling with max ranks in Hide will probably suffice. There are ways around virtually every method of detection, and unless the DM is specifically out to make your role impossible it should be perfectly workable... but that's true for everything. I don't say Wizards are worthless because everywhere has giant Antimagic Fields up all the time. These scenarios were it's completely impossible to scout because there's Touchsight up are just as silly. Likewise, the ones where everyone can totally spot the stealther automatically. That's not how most people play the game, and CERTAINLY not how it's written.
I will shunt the blame for my failure onto the meanieface SUNIC, and claim that I am remotely worth a fuck in a lower power game, even though I can't do anything unless the enemies nicely permit me to do it!
To be clear, the game as written says that the guards should be Fighters (yes, Fighters, the guys with no ranks in spot). Most enemies have very few spot ranks. While Blindsense and Scent are reasonably common, Mindsight and Touchsight are virtually unheard of. If you check the population lists given, there's not enough casters to be regular threats especially as you get to higher levels. This game where everything's CR +3 above you, optimized to spot, got all sorts of autodetection abilities up, and everything's a caster... that's not the game as written, that's a very specific campaign type that Sunic runs but very few others do. He plays a game where the population is NOTHING like the ones written in the books, where everyone's optimized to be a threat to the players. That's his play style and that's fine, but that's not standard, and to try to draw any conclusions from it is foolish.
JaronK
I will finish by stroking my micropenis to GIANT STRAWMEN and demanding that all enemies be incompetent fuckwits so that I can actually accomplish anything at all!
And now a word from our sponsors.
JaronK.
