Author Topic: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff  (Read 9928 times)

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dman11235

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 12:32:39 AM »
No, no typo.  My monks regularly have unarmed damage of 12d8+.  I try to get 36d8 whenever I can (it's the most possible so far in actual play).  And with that rules set, Monkey grip becomes far more powerful than Powerful Build currently is.  Think about how Powerful Build would be.  There are a LOT of things affected by that rule that aren't just giving melee fighters a SoD type effect.

It's a really great ability for campaigns that are heavy on the killing, it will help thin out enemies faster.  For my type of campaign, not a chance.  For some, sure, I can see it being a fun thing to have.  Just realize that you're dealing massive con damage here.  A greatsword is 2d6 alone, and just two size increases, and you're at 4d6, not something hard to achieve (Enlarge Person).  You've also made base weapon damage really important with this, keep that in mind.
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Orion

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 01:50:40 AM »
Uh, yeah. We're talking about the mechanics here, not Magical Tea Party.
A statement was made that there are only 15 characters (or so) available in core rules. I supplied a very clear argument against that statement. Would like to address the point or continue to fling childish insults?

Guyr Adamantine

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 01:55:39 AM »
Uh, yeah. We're talking about the mechanics here, not Magical Tea Party.

A statement was made that there are only 15 characters (or so) available in core rules. I supplied a very clear argument against that statement. Would like to address the point or continue to fling childish insults?

No need to fight, you both.

Now, Orion, he actually is right. When talking about balance, fluff can screw itself.

OneWinged4ngel

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 03:26:56 AM »
Uh, yeah. We're talking about the mechanics here, not Magical Tea Party.

A statement was made that there are only 15 characters (or so) available in core rules. I supplied a very clear argument against that statement. Would like to address the point or continue to fling childish insults?

No need to fight, you both.

Now, Orion, he actually is right. When talking about balance, fluff can screw itself.

Indeed, it is impossible to have any particularly rational discourse about balance if you're talking about much other than, well, mechanics.

CDG is very hard to set up, IMO
  That was kinda the point I was making.

Quote
What I was looking for was for a way for a fighter-type to one-shot an opponent, a wizard for example, on a lucky hit. Or at least weaken them severely.
  And this seems to just make "random roll of the dice death for no particular tactical failure" all the more common, which is personally a direction I would not like to see the game go farther in.  But hey, if it's fun for you, go for it!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 03:31:45 AM by OneWinged4ngel »

Orion

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 04:56:52 AM »
No need to fight, you both.

Now, Orion, he actually is right. When talking about balance, fluff can screw itself.
I'm not fighting. I simply addressed a flippant and dismissive comment made by a fellow poster.

What you call "fluff" is a very important part of this discussion. The contention was that there are only 15 or so possible characters to play based on the core rules, and therefore the core rules are (implicitly) insufficient to create a genuine variety of game-play experiences. I argue, however, that playing different personalities with different character histories is <i>the</i> way that players and DMs have created their own variety in this game, in its various incarnations, for going on 40 years now. There was very little mechanical difference between one 2nd Ed fighter and another, aside from what weapons they owned, and yet we managed to play genuinely different, varied characters for decades before feats and skills and advanced classes came along.

I say the following with great respect for all the posters and in the spirit of rigorous debate: to dismiss role-playing as mere "fluff" is to seriously misunderstand the basic concept of a <b>role</b>-playing game.

OneWinged4ngel

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2008, 05:41:56 AM »
I'm not fighting. I simply addressed a flippant and dismissive comment made by a fellow poster.
  Pretty sure you're fighting.  Over nothing, for that matter.

Quote
What you call "fluff" is a very important part of this discussion.
  You say that, but offer absolutely no explanation as to why. 
Quote
The contention was that there are only 15 or so possible characters to play based on the core rules, and therefore the core rules are (implicitly) insufficient to create a genuine variety of game-play experiences. I argue, however, that playing different personalities with different character histories is <i>the</i> way that players and DMs have created their own variety in this game, in its various incarnations, for going on 40 years now. There was very little mechanical difference between one 2nd Ed fighter and another, aside from what weapons they owned, and yet we managed to play genuinely different, varied characters for decades before feats and skills and advanced classes came along.
Wow, this makes absolutely no difference within the context of the discussion.   It seems like it's just going in one ear and out the other, but I'll explain why again.  Quite simply, you can play 10,000+ vastly different character concepts and have them feel vastly different and play vastly different in the course of a roleplaying game.  This has absolutely no relevance to a discussion about mechanical build versatility, let alone balance.  It is, quite simply, wholly irrelevant to the subject of discussion, and thus commits the fallacy of irrelevance.

Quote
I say the following with great respect for all the posters and in the spirit of rigorous debate: to dismiss role-playing as mere "fluff" is to seriously misunderstand the basic concept of a <b>role</b>-playing game.


You're talking to a guy whose group talks like this when they just plain go to sleep in a real time chat game (not pbp): 

The energy, burning and roiling inside, festered like oil on paper in the heat of a candle. While Azalea slept, the shadow of the bed worked itself like a hole upon reality, reaching tendrils of true night into the otherwise silent evening. A screaming silence enveloped the floorboards and window, causing the flickering light of the lamp to become an island of reality, fervently grasping at the colors there like a flood of cockroaches emptying a dank castle
The gateway to that nether realm existed not within the room, however, but in its occupant, and it was no gaping abyss, no, that solid black river was a conduit, gifting, reaching, as Azalea's subconscious thoughts ripped non-forces from the stream like the clattering hands of some bony fiend dipping into horrid rivers of mewling truths.
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...Yeah, I don't think I need a lecture on roleplaying any more than I need someone to tell me I can't roleplay because I can build a competent character.  Seriously.  Give us a freakin' break already.

And honestly, accusing us of grievously misunderstanding the nature of a roleplaying game for no reason is nothing near respectful.

Moreover, no one is dismissing the importance of roleplaying to the game.  They are dismissing the relevance of roleplaying aspects to this specific venue of discussion, where it is in fact largely irrelevant.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 05:56:52 AM by OneWinged4ngel »

Callix

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2008, 07:28:15 AM »
There are as many characters in core as you can imagine. However, there are only 15 or so mechanical executions of them, and a few infinities of characterisation (mobile warrior; someone who lives and breathes, rather than casts, magic; etc) are not really available in core. This is an issue, as is the fact that, if one were to try and make the world make sense, Clerics should lead the armies, and Fighters should only be trained when the clergy is full. So we try to fix them, and make role-playing easier, since our suspension of disbelief isn't being strained by the implications of the mechanics.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2008, 09:19:00 AM »
As has been said by others, having crits do Con damage screws the fighter more than anyone else, because he's going to be hit a lot more than 20 times, and if one of those instant kills him...

This is also why VP/WP systems fail.

This makes the only valid ways of playing ones where you never get hit. Great. Everyone's a uber caster doing scry and die jumps via stealth and such. Fighters are useless. Seeing as your goal was to make them useful... you backfired.

Death attack: All my characters go for Heavy Fort, which is always entertaining.

Assassin: *does the sneaky thing three rounds, attempts death attack*
Me: *is either missed, or takes around... 3 damage due to immunity* Oh, another one? ((Nobles attract a lot of assassins, I'm using one specific character as an example here.))
Assassin: ... *loses init*
Me: *breaks out one of those fuck you, you die combos when odds need to be stacked such as to ensure victory, otherwise she holds back a lot*
Assassin: ...Crap. *dies*
Me: ...Idiots... *makes another mark on the wall*
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Chemus

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2008, 05:43:39 PM »
I unterstand, and sympathize with, the desire to reduce random 'you die/suck' effects. However, without making the game too gritty, I want there to be real and immediate chances of dying quickly from every combat character type. Currently, as I see it, only casters and assassins really get the chance in combat to one-shot anything that's even remotely a challenge (and as S_F pointed out that there's a defense for most anything, although his mention of a 'you die' combo is unknown to me...). Plus I'm hoping we reduce the number of slugfests that can ensue when two melee-ers get into it.

Also at the moment, I see the Melee-er/tank's job as taking hits and keeping the bruisers off of the important people's asses. That can be imortant, but I'm not sure that I'd find it satisfying for play. How do we make a base system that rewards melee play if the casters can outperform them on any level?

Edit: Oh, and I'm obviously iggerant of the builds that give monstrous base weapon damage to the monk. Surely that should get looked at in the balancing? 12d8, let alone 36d8, per hit is pretty hefty.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 06:10:14 PM by Chemus »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2008, 06:23:48 PM »
Greater Mighty Wallop and others. He still can't hit much though. :P

The purpose of a 'you die' combo is when you really don't want to take any chances and want to ensure whatever you are attacking dies. That means minimizing, or eliminating all risk to ensure success.

For example, a Maximized Twinned Split Rayed Enervation is 16 negative levels with no save. As long as you ensure the target isn't or cannot render itself immune, and render it flat footed so it can't fuck you over with some Immediate action, you are pretty much assured of killing any human NPC of 16th level or lower. Unless you roll a 1 vs touch flat footed AC, in which case you use a Lucky Shuriken. Add Empowered, 20-24. Definite kill vs any non epic NPC.

Monsters have more HD than this of course, so less effective but still a great way to cripple them at battle's start.

I only use something like this when dealing with major threats... such as a traitorous PC Wizard, who you really don't want to allow any actions to.

To get the jump on them... well I hear ESA Silences, Invis, Stealth around +50 or so works if you then sneak up on them. Of course if they're smart enough to take countermeasures, not as much. You get the idea though.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

dman11235

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2008, 07:49:01 PM »
It's not unbalanced at all.  Look at the damage.  It's 162 average for the highest number.  For 12 it's only 36.  Without a high strength bonus, that's terrible damage at level 20.  And I cant easily do a charger build with this, so I'm not pulling 1000+ damage on a charge.
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Chemus

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2008, 08:00:38 PM »
Well, while I'm not convinced that using Con directly via basic critical hits isn't a good thing, I'll concede that there's weaknesses there. Perhaps a setup using a special attack like feint or sneak attack or whatever could fix it. Perhaps not.

Question: why do hit points need to increase as power levels increase? If damage were fairly level and didn't increase much over time, HP's could remain constant, and just the number of options could change. Are higher damage numbers more than a measure of advancement?

Edit:New idea ( :-[oops! I don't know why I totally forgot about JaronK's Tier system. This might be considered the exact same thing or perhaps a small expansion on it) about game balance: Why not have a 'Cheese level' to rules. The monk'sGreater Might Whallop, for example, is is great for optimized damage, but getting all the way to 36d8, while quite an accomplishment, seems kinda cheesy to me. So to make the DM's job easier, why not have a power level to everything, and some arbitrary limit to certain things (AC, to Hit bonuses, individual attack damage/effects) for each level.

Stacking things too high for the allowed Cheese Level just wouldn't work. Also, although I like the term 'Cheese Level' (I liked the weapon size categories from Tales From the Floating Vagabond RPG too: Gun, Big Gun, Really Big Gun, My God That's A Big Gun, and Don't Point That At My Planet! My tastes just run to the absurd...), any nicely turned phrase could do.

Anyway, there's lots that could stand a change, IMO
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 09:07:20 PM by Chemus »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2008, 08:05:32 PM »
Monks are a weak class. Even with that. Especially without. *shrugs*

If HP didn't scale, you'd have all encounters about the same... Instead of there being a noticible difference between the red dragon breathing, and the experienced fighter getting his shield up (takes 50 damage, of 100 HP) in time to save himself vs the other guy becoming crispified and a charred skeleton (takes 50 damage, of 20 HP).

In other words, HP reflect skill as well as toughness.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Callix

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2008, 09:31:21 PM »
Also, it allows the players to feel like they've achieved something. If HP was static, then a level 20 character would be almost as threatened by a gang of goblins as a level 1 character. And if you make their options more and more powerful, but the enemies can't get more powerful (because they'd do too much damage to the fixed-HP PCs), then it becomes a raid: can we DPS fast enough to drop him before we die?

Side note: I play a lot of nWoD games, which use a fairly fixed system of Health Levels. High-powered combats quickly become "did you win initiative?", and Spirits (a common and flexible enemy that most games face fairly frequently) have a crazy initiative bonus. While the Health Level system helps to make players more cautious, it also leaves the GM with very little room to vary opponents' power levels, as there isn't much power difference between "round 1, you're bleeding out" and "round 1, you win".
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Vindiction7

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2008, 02:09:11 AM »
Well, while I'm not convinced that using Con directly via basic critical hits isn't a good thing

I'm gonna have to go with the others here and say that death should result from some manner of tactical failure, rather than just some 5% luck of the draw.

Arquebuz

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2008, 02:53:03 PM »
Though I,m a noob to these boards, I'm not to the game in general.  My group came up against the same save-or-die issues time and time again, and also wanted to give melee types something similar, other than massive optimized damage.  We adopted use of a specific criticals/fumbles chart that showed up in the Dragon compendium.  Not always crit-and-kill, but often enough a crit-and-might-as-well-have-killed.  Certainly not as deadly as damage to Con, but a reasonable mid-point, with a little realism thrown in as a side bonus.  With everyone's saves so freakin' high, the table crit disabling happens about as often as an SOD meeting a failed save (1 in 4 attempts, roughly).  Not perfect, but better. 

Sunic_Flames

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2008, 02:56:12 PM »
Though I,m a noob to these boards, I'm not to the game in general.  My group came up against the same save-or-die issues time and time again, and also wanted to give melee types something similar, other than massive optimized damage.  We adopted use of a specific criticals/fumbles chart that showed up in the Dragon compendium.  Not always crit-and-kill, but often enough a crit-and-might-as-well-have-killed.  Certainly not as deadly as damage to Con, but a reasonable mid-point, with a little realism thrown in as a side bonus.  With everyone's saves so freakin' high, the table crit disabling happens about as often as an SOD meeting a failed save (1 in 4 attempts, roughly).  Not perfect, but better. 

Except that it means that quickly piles up against your melees, screwing them over in very short order.
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: A Word About Balance and Fixing Stuff
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2008, 12:01:49 AM »

Question: why do hit points need to increase as power levels increase? If damage were fairly level and didn't increase much over time, HP's could remain constant, and just the number of options could change. Are higher damage numbers more than a measure of advancement?

...

You... MIGHT... want to check out 4th ed, it's exactly what you just said.

In every way.

Sounds perfect for you!