Author Topic: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!  (Read 55966 times)

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veekie

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #140 on: February 14, 2011, 12:44:50 AM »
Still wouldn't do much against a nat 1 on a save or die though. The thing with some attacks is you just need ONE roll to kill you.

Well, that's why you work as a group. As long as one of you survives to revivify/carry your dead bodies to a safe place, the show can go on!

One party member dying won't stop the history. Only the whole party dying will. Because cheap ressurection is cheap, and the experience tables will speed up your recovery.

1% chance of failing will kill you in each hundred combats, but 1% chance per player for four players means you only all die every 100 000 000 ecounters. And then you can share awesome stories about your most heroic/silly deaths.

Yeah but the dead guys are sitting it out until they get returned to life.
No cure for that, especially if the cleric(who can fix it given a scroll, and some time) bites it instead of bringing them back at the end of the fight.
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Gods_Trick

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #141 on: February 14, 2011, 01:30:47 AM »

Personally, and this is fluff I know, I just don't like to die, unless its an epic moment. Dying and rezzing cheapens the heroic value of the PC IMO. When death is only a threat to your pocketbook, *shrugs* I' not sure why I'm playing anymore.

SeekingKnight

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #142 on: February 14, 2011, 02:30:00 AM »

Personally, and this is fluff I know, I just don't like to die, unless its an epic moment. Dying and rezzing cheapens the heroic value of the PC IMO. When death is only a threat to your pocketbook, *shrugs* I' not sure why I'm playing anymore.

This is very true.  Like in books, movies, ect. the hero should not die at all or it be a very heroic sacrifice.  Like Vader in Star Wars who redeems himself via a noble sacrifice (maybe a bad example so sue me).  Also remember that death, while a fact in D&D, may be cheap for one party member it still hurts in the long run.  Because now more of an investment of time to get said character raised as well slowing down any progress made. 

Sunic_Flames

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #143 on: February 14, 2011, 10:09:57 AM »
It was there that I knew Sunic is right.  Yes playing with friends is fun as it the story of the characters. But without IP proofing the character will not last long.  Without even intelligence usage of minimal optimization characters will die fast.  I want my characters to live and explore their story but by the same token I don't want to want luck to play a part of anything.  Hell all the guys in the group rolled their stats and their hp per level.  So some very odd numbers were out there.

Sorry for long rant but to make it clear Sunic is 100% right.  He won me over.  IP proof and not be CAPed or gtfo.

We have a convert.

As for Kanya...

Hi Welcome

The enemies are over there. And that means that unlike a competitive game, where everyone can suck and still play against each other there are minimum baselines of competence. And you are either tall enough to play... or you aren't. So step it up or step it on out.

Because if your numbers fail, you don't get to do all the other things. You are dead. You cannot play. Because you are not tall enough to do so.
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IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #144 on: February 14, 2011, 10:39:13 AM »
It was there that I knew Sunic is right.  Yes playing with friends is fun as it the story of the characters. But without IP proofing the character will not last long.  Without even intelligence usage of minimal optimization characters will die fast.  I want my characters to live and explore their story but by the same token I don't want to want luck to play a part of anything.  Hell all the guys in the group rolled their stats and their hp per level.  So some very odd numbers were out there.

Sorry for long rant but to make it clear Sunic is 100% right.  He won me over.  IP proof and not be CAPed or gtfo.

We have a convert.

As for Kanya...

Hi Welcome

The enemies are over there. And that means that unlike a competitive game, where everyone can suck and still play against each other there are minimum baselines of competence. And you are either tall enough to play... or you aren't. So step it up or step it on out.

Because if your numbers fail, you don't get to do all the other things. You are dead. You cannot play. Because you are not tall enough to do so.

As I stated in the other thread, death is often just a chance to apply corpsecrafting feats.  :p

(Though our houserules on necromancy make this more feasible.)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 10:43:23 AM by Kajhera »

SeekingKnight

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #145 on: February 14, 2011, 12:53:18 PM »
We have a convert.

As for Kanya...

Hi Welcome

The enemies are over there. And that means that unlike a competitive game, where everyone can suck and still play against each other there are minimum baselines of competence. And you are either tall enough to play... or you aren't. So step it up or step it on out.

Because if your numbers fail, you don't get to do all the other things. You are dead. You cannot play. Because you are not tall enough to do so.

As an example to this.  My first character was a Crusader.  Decently built but should have been better.  After a while I lost faith in the character because ever time I rolled to hit a monster I miss.  It grew frustrating that the damn rogue was doing better damage then me because he was lucky with his rolls.  Hell I couldn't use my manuvers because I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.  With no IP proofing I got CAPed by a rogue.  When I went for a dungeon crashing Zeintarm (sp?) fighter that was a Desert Half-Orc/Half-Minotaur/Half-Ogre the Dm cried foul because I would be auto hitting things and doing an average of 10 damage an auto hit.  I IP proofed by optimizing but had to change characters because they felt I was too powerful.


Everyone wants to help a party out (I believe) as well as have a moment to shine.

Shiki

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #146 on: February 14, 2011, 01:57:18 PM »
As an example to this.  My first character was a Crusader.  Decently built but should have been better.  After a while I lost faith in the character because ever time I rolled to hit a monster I miss.  It grew frustrating that the damn rogue was doing better damage then me because he was lucky with his rolls.  Hell I couldn't use my manuvers because I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.  With no IP proofing I got CAPed by a rogue.  When I went for a dungeon crashing Zeintarm (sp?) fighter that was a Desert Half-Orc/Half-Minotaur/Half-Ogre the Dm cried foul because I would be auto hitting things and doing an average of 10 damage an auto hit.  I IP proofed by optimizing but had to change characters because they felt I was too powerful.


Everyone wants to help a party out (I believe) as well as have a moment to shine.

Zhentarim. Also, the problem here is when you know the game better than the DM himself or/and the other players. You build a character that is good at what he specialize in and etc, which means he doesn't fail at "life". You want the character to not get killed by the next random mook in the streets and play a real "hero" like in fantasy literature, movies, even freaking animes/mangas, etc. The others cry out for cheating because you are competent, and/or doesn't know 90+% of the rules/options you can use for your character which makes up for some shitty games.

Here's another point that makes up for some shitty games; when the DM bans books because "everything outside core is overpowered." Do you know that Wizards, Druids and Clerics are core? So like, yeah. The best thing you can do is teach 'em how the game really works, and that optimization is a part of the game. Puttin your highest roll in INT because you are a Wizard IS optimization. Buying a Headband of Intellect for your Wizard IS freaking optimization. Things should get banned on a case-by-case basis (ex: Candle of Invocation for wish loops etc), not because they are in some "obscure" splatbook, Banning those cuts options to create a real character, compared to Core Only Fighter.

The best thing you can do is teach them how the freaking game works, which can be problematic when you are not charismatic enough or if they do not care to learn more about the game. At that point, there's almost not point even trying and you should only play freeform with them, which is basically what they freaking want probably.

oh wellz sry 4 da rant etc
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SeekingKnight

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #147 on: February 14, 2011, 02:30:24 PM »
@Shiki:

You are correct.  Yes I do know the game 100% better then the other players and even the DM, which is sad when a DM doesn't even know how feats work on the most basic level.  Your rant is fine because I understand where you are coming from.  One of my friends even said "I like making a well rounded character. Optimization is a one trick pony."  I built the fighter so I could hit and not feel like a fifth wheel in combat.  But that is past the point of this thread.  I IP proofed via optimization but since we had a sorcerer in the party who could have been given a wand of true strike to help the melee out would have been nice and that too is IP proofing.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #148 on: February 14, 2011, 06:05:24 PM »
As for Kanya...

Hi Welcome
Oh, thanks. And how are you?

Quote
The enemies are over there. And that means that unlike a competitive game, where everyone can suck and still play against each other there are minimum baselines of competence. And you are either tall enough to play... or you aren't. So step it up or step it on out.

Because if your numbers fail, you don't get to do all the other things. You are dead. You cannot play. Because you are not tall enough to do so.
That's one way to play, but not not the only one.
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[spoiler]
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wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

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Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
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SeekingKnight

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #149 on: February 14, 2011, 06:14:37 PM »
@Anarchy:

I love..LOVE Tier 3 classes. Like Dread Necromancer but the fact is this, Clerics are just better at it.  Wizards are just better at it.  It is mechanics plain and simple.  You don't have to play with IP proofing and not being CAPed but you will die a lot more.  You also will see combat take more time then it should. 

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #150 on: February 14, 2011, 06:25:18 PM »
@Anarchy:

I love..LOVE Tier 3 classes. Like Dread Necromancer but the fact is this, Clerics are just better at it.  Wizards are just better at it.  It is mechanics plain and simple.  You don't have to play with IP proofing and not being CAPed but you will die a lot more.  You also will see combat take more time then it should. 
I'm knowingly taking risks. The game is more fun that way. Yeah, I die sooner or later and then I sit out, but until it happens I'm having more fun. And I'm not the only one. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. :)
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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SeekingKnight

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #151 on: February 14, 2011, 06:27:28 PM »
I respect that.  :)  Agree with it no but I respect your opinion, besides the main point of D&D (any rpg for that matter) is not on it being broken or not but on being with friends and making new friends.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #152 on: February 14, 2011, 06:50:48 PM »
I respect that.  :)  Agree with it no but I respect your opinion, besides the main point of D&D (any rpg for that matter) is not on it being broken or not but on being with friends and making new friends.
Amen.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Tyal-Kelvar

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #153 on: February 14, 2011, 06:59:52 PM »
Okay, the other thread is really the wrong place for it so how do you mean that tier 3 can't IP proof?

They seem to me to be much better at approaching it than tier 4. My tier 4 character, who suffered circumstances like being Dominated, took a level of Warblade to boost her will saves as quickly as possible - and it worked and helped her not get screwed in quite as many ways. Being able to leap away as a swift action didn't hurt either... (I don't think I even realized I could take higher-level maneuvers.)

Perhaps they are worse at it than higher tiers, but I have found great use for tier 3 defensive measures, personally, and they do seem to reduce my rate of death significantly, so ... why would that not count as IP proofing?

Exactly as I said. They can't. They lack the actual abilities to do that.

Let's look at the common ones.

Greater/Superior Resistance: Resistance bonus to saves. While not unique, it does save money, or save money and give you a better bonus than money can buy. 1s and 2s can cast it easily. The only 3 that gets it is the Bard, and they get it 5 or 6 levels after everyone else does, which means you're long dead by then.

Conviction and its Mass version: Morale bonus to saves. A very uncommon bonus, particularly since the only other way to get morale bonuses to saves both sucks a barrel of cocks, and belongs to one of the most frequently banned schools of magic. It also grants a lesser bonus and is single target in any case. 1s and 2s only.

Recitation: Luck bonus to saves. Tier 1s and 2s only. Also requires DMM to be usable, so make that just 1s.

GMW: Used both so that beatsticks get the to hit and damage from it without taking the massive DPS hit that comes from not taking weapon special properties, and so that everyone gets +5 touch AC and +5 to all saves, both untyped or some obscure bonus type via +1 Defending armor spikes and +1 Spellstrike Animated shield spikes. You guessed it, 1s and 2s only.

Magic Vestment: Not for AC, you'll get auto hit anyways. For touch AC, when combined with Ghost Ward. But lol, 1s and 2s only.

End result? Without at least 1 tier 1-2 in the party, everyone is down +14 all saves and +15 touch AC. That's a lot of IP proofing you miss out on. In fact you go from actually diminishing rocket tag a fair bit to going down the moment an enemy so much as looks at you. And no, things like "maneuver to make a Concentration check instead of a save" don't help, both because anyone can do that for 3k, and because you'll still be worse off even when you have those. And when you don't, say because you have to make a second save? Well, you're fucked.

And then there's outright immunity, things that are restricted or completely unavailable to the lower tiers, but 1s and 2s can access freely.

If the tier list were written sensibly and objectively, as opposed to based on what JaronK would allow in his own games then those classes would be on top mostly because they're the only ones with decent defenses. Everything else however would shift around a bit.

Okay, this is enough to prove tier 1 & 2 casters can get much better everything than tier 3s and below.  No big surprise there, but after a couple of days thinking about it... well, using all of those together might be going a bit too far.  After all, once failure on a save is a natural 1, any additional bonuses to your saves are wasted resources, right? Thus the question is how high are the save DCs for monsters of each CR? What would the goal save bonus be at each level?  Along the same lines, what about touch AC? Or even how much normal AC does one need to achieve to avoid melee attacks high level? (Yes, with the last one, the number will be too high to achieve, but still having the number will prove a point)


zugschef

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #155 on: February 15, 2011, 07:33:04 AM »
Exactly as I said. They can't. They lack the actual abilities to do that.
some psychic warrior powers...

Level 1

Level 2

Level 3

Level 4

Level 5

Level 6

as you can see, a psywar gets gems like detect hostile intent and steadfast perception (try to duplicate these effects with spells). energy adaption makes them as good as invulnerable to energy damage. defensive precognition lets them boost their saves as an immediate action. and finally if you really need it, change fate is the ultimate tool to avoid certain demise.

what i'm trying to say is: a psychic warrior does not lack the ability to ip proof against a bunch of effects. and neither wizards nor clerics can ip proof against everything on their own.

so... it's simply not true that tier 3s cannot reduce the negative effects of iterative probability (unless you argue that psychic warriors belong to a higher tier or are a special case).

veekie

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #156 on: February 15, 2011, 07:36:17 AM »
Might be more accurate to say that T3s usually have some means of innate IP proofing, but attempting to be comprehensive may be significantly more resource intensive(whether in combat actions, abilities known, etc) than for higher tiers.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #157 on: February 15, 2011, 09:21:27 AM »
That's one way to play, but not not the only one.

Step it up or step it on out. Your handwaving in no way changes this.

Okay, this is enough to prove tier 1 & 2 casters can get much better everything than tier 3s and below.  No big surprise there, but after a couple of days thinking about it... well, using all of those together might be going a bit too far.  After all, once failure on a save is a natural 1, any additional bonuses to your saves are wasted resources, right? Thus the question is how high are the save DCs for monsters of each CR? What would the goal save bonus be at each level?  Along the same lines, what about touch AC? Or even how much normal AC does one need to achieve to avoid melee attacks high level? (Yes, with the last one, the number will be too high to achieve, but still having the number will prove a point)

Not necessarily. Your saves could be debuffed. You could be fighting a harder than routine encounter, it happens 40% of the time after all. You could have no fail on a 1. Enemies could optimize their DCs. See what I'm saying?

So if say, you assume a decent baseline of a caster with no racial mental stats with all level up points into the mental stat and items and such you get numbers like DC 18 at 5, DC 22 at 10, DC 25 at 15, and DC 31 at 20. But then you assume any or all of those conditions listed previously and the numbers go up. That's why the criteria is "as high as possible" as even say, 40 all saves isn't likely to be wasted (though, 30 is more practical, but not perfect). You can draw similar parallels for touch AC, with the caveat that there is actual touch attacks, and then there is melee attacks converted to touch. The first can be blocked with Ghost Ward armors and such, the second will probably hit anyways.

Good AC, vs routine, not optimized encounters is 27 at level 5, 40-45 at level 10, 55-60 at 15, and 70-75 at 20. So yeah.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Shadeseraph

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #158 on: February 15, 2011, 12:34:38 PM »
@Whisper:  What game do you play that does not suck?  You mention Champions but are there any others?
Way back when, I played Champions, GURPS, Fantasy HERO, mostly. None of which are perfect, but all of which are orders of magnitude less broken than D&D. Or, they were back then. Possibly the latest editions are better or worse. I don't know.

Mmmm... In my experience, GURPS sucks hard (as do almost every point buy based game, really) in the balance department without heavy DM control. HERO may be the less broken point buy based game out there, and it's awesome right now. The main difficulty is getting someone to play it because of its complexity, but I have to say that for me I have to agree is better than D&D. Champions... never played. New game to look at. Thanks!
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

SeekingKnight

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Re: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!
« Reply #159 on: February 15, 2011, 12:46:41 PM »
Ty Shade.  I believe the purpose is one can play many rpgs and have many favorites.  It is fine to have a love of one rpg and not like others.

@Sunic:

How does one get an AC of 27 by level 5?  I assume for Wizards it is a dex of at least 16, mage armor and other things?