Author Topic: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!  (Read 55957 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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It has come to my attention that while I've certainly used, and explained these terms enough, they are not in a central location for easy reference. So let's fix that.

IP proofing - IP stands for Iterative Probability. While it is common knowledge in optimizer circles that luck is the enemy, and even the most basic of optimization tactics aim to reduce or eliminate luck as a factor as a direct result of this, IP Proofing codifies both the term used to describe it, and the measures used to obtain it.

The principle of IP proofing is simple. Campaigns are long. They will contain combat. PCs must win every combat to win. Team Monster must win a single combat to win. For this reason even small chances to fail in any given fight quickly approach one over the course of a campaign, and if you have a large chance to fail in any given fight, you will die constantly. And because of the skewed victory conditions, a "large chance" can be as low as 10%. In other words, 90% chance to win a fight = your character is more likely than not dead on the seventh fight. Since there are 13 and a third fights a level, and therefore that's only about half of a single level, clearly this is unworkable.

The act of IP proofing a character is the means by which you get that failure rate as low as you possibly can, preferably to the fractional percentage levels. This requires high enough saves to pass level appropriate effects on a 2 or better, immunities to common effects to further protect you, and block the no save, you die effects, means of avoiding full attacks, real defenses (Blink, Mirror Image, miss chances), anti ray defenses (Ring of Entropic Deflection, Ray Deflection, etc) among other things. Rerolls for example, to further mitigate the 1s.

It is not possible to IP proof low level characters. You cannot get your saves high enough to do so, don't really have immunities and abilities, etc. Mid level characters can be IP proofed. High level characters are relatively easy to IP proof.

IP proofing is necessary for campaign survival. Even normal power campaigns will quickly rack up a death toll. By IP proofing your character, you both preserve your character so you can continue playing and enjoying them and preserve campaign continuity. Both are obviously desirable. The only other alternatives is that the DM undermines the entire campaign by cheating, or that the entire campaign is undermined by a revolving door of characters. Not the same characters leaving and coming back. Different characters.

For you see, Raise Dead, which I know people are probably wanting to mention by now makes you lose levels and lose money. If it just happens once, this is ignorable. Thing is, once you die once, you're down a level. So it's easier to die again. And now you're a cohort, with substantially nerfed treasure. Which means the whole party, including you is better off if you just make a new character, and you certainly are not going to be able to contribute after that second death.

"You got CAPed" - CAPed stands for Cleric Archer Phenomena. It need not necessarily refer to a Cleric or an Archer. Instead it describes a principle.

In 3rd edition, the Arcane Archer was even more sad and pathetic than it is today. The Cleric Archer build originally was just any Cleric with Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Power. However despite these most basic of measures being taken, the Cleric Archer still had the entire benefits of that entire 10 level PRC. And still was a Cleric. The reason for this was not Clerics being overpowered, but rather Arcane Archers being underpowered. As such, their abilities can be trivially duplicated or exceeded by a real class, who is still said real class.

The Cleric Archer Phenomena describes any situation in which something offers so little that an alternative that is a real class can do everything it can and more. "You got CAPed" is a phrase describing the victim of the same. Generally, but not always, the victims of CAP are beatsticks, primarily because they do offer so little.

Examples in use:

"My 12th level Cleric will make use of Persisted Recitation, Persisted Mass Conviction, and Superior Resistance to IP proof the party and himself."
"The Dervish class has been CAPed by Lion Totem Barbarian. Don't take Dervish."
"A Monk instead of a Cleric? Hahaha, you got CAPed."
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Common
Heh
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veekie

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Now THATS the Sunic I used to know!
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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Sunic_Flames

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Now THATS the Sunic I used to know!

Giving this post the benefit of the doubt.

Explain.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Useful, detailed, and right :)
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Runestar

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It is funny I read this thread right after reading this thread.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/83199-issues-summon-monster-summon-natures-ally-2004-thread.html

Basically, it detailes how a player realises his optimised monk cannot stand up to a druid's summon nature ally spell.

So how would I word this? The monk got CAP'ed by SNA?
A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.

Sunic_Flames

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It is funny I read this thread right after reading this thread.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/83199-issues-summon-monster-summon-natures-ally-2004-thread.html

Basically, it detailes how a player realises his optimised monk cannot stand up to a druid's summon nature ally spell.

So how would I word this? The monk got CAP'ed by SNA?

That is an acceptable wording. As long as CAP is being used as a noun, and CAPed as a verb, and the terms are used in the context described here (preferably with a link here, so they know what you just said) the usage is fine. Advising him to play a real class, and not a Monk is highly recommended as well, as low tier classes, such as the Monk are doomed to be CAPed by real classes.

And I'm nicer when I'm not smiting imbeciles. There's just so many of them. This thread isn't about that though. It's about putting a name to what we all know.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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So any suggestions on controlling this from the DMing side?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Shadeseraph

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It's about putting a name to what we all know.

Yep, this needed a name. Too many people forget this fact when dealing with combat oriented role-playing games, and with D&D in particular. There IS a need for IP proofing, in fact.

It is funny I read this thread right after reading this thread.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/83199-issues-summon-monster-summon-natures-ally-2004-thread.html

Basically, it detailes how a player realises his optimised monk cannot stand up to a druid's summon nature ally spell.

So how would I word this? The monk got CAP'ed by SNA?

I've suffered a lot of Int damage reading that thread. Runestar, I hate you.
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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So any suggestions on controlling this from the DMing side?

This question makes no sense. Elaborate. What is there to "control"?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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To ensure ideal outcomes for IP without resorting to cop outs(like turning lethal blows to knockout etc). After all as a DM you preferably want your players to be alive, yet challenged. And CR is ass.

Hadn't found any good solutions so far, besides playing monsters terminally stupid.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

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To ensure ideal outcomes for IP without resorting to cop outs(like turning lethal blows to knockout etc). After all as a DM you preferably want your players to be alive, yet challenged. And CR is ass.

Hadn't found any good solutions so far, besides playing monsters terminally stupid.

Direct the players to pick up on such things. Don't be an idiot and ban DMM (DMM makes the party better, but doesn't help the Cleric themselves too much) as DMM is required for several important IP proofing measures. And ya know, teamwork.

Mostly, the best thing the DM can do is get good players, or make good players if they aren't already good. Otherwise, you either have to deliberately coddle, or slaughter them all the time. Both of them result in a low quality game.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Runestar

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Yum...CAP'ed...

Short, rolls off the tongue, and has a certain badass ring to it.

Consider it stolen. As and when I remember to use it.  :p
A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.

Whisper

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The principle of IP proofing is simple. Campaigns are long. They will contain combat. PCs must win every combat to win. Team Monster must win a single combat to win.

Interesting take, although I would put it as "PCs must survive every combat to win".

At low level, this is almost the same thing, since options for surviving a losing fight amount to running (a suboptimal strategy for getting every character out alive). But at high level, tricks for instantly being elsewhere abound, and this makes caster classes somewhat more survivable, as if they weren't already.

Of course, for many tactics that will be turned against PCs, death or incapacity is instantaneous, so this doesn't completely change the equation, only partially. But withdrawing early if overmatched or at risk can be regarded as an additional source of risk mitigation.

This phenomenon as a whole appears to be mostly a consequence of D&D's broken leveling system. Other game systems award character advancement for accomplishing goals, thus rewarding risk avoidance. But D&D awards character advancement for fighting, and therefore bypassing these kinds of risks is counterproductive.

So, if your goal is to level as safely and reliably as possible, the optimal strategy to face foes who are realistically weaker than their CR suggests (e.g. fighters rather than casters), or to "grind" by facing more foes of a lower CR. Thus, the more bored you are, the better you are doing.

If your goal is instead to enjoy yourself, the optimal strategy is to play some game less broken than D&D.

Littha

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This phenomenon as a whole appears to be mostly a consequence of D&D's broken leveling system. Other game systems award character advancement for accomplishing goals, thus rewarding risk avoidance. But D&D awards character advancement for fighting, and therefore bypassing these kinds of risks is counterproductive.
With respect this is completely wrong, D&D awards Xp for overcoming challenges.
Disarming traps or escaping from an ambush are challenges.

bkdubs123

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This phenomenon as a whole appears to be mostly a consequence of D&D's broken leveling system. Other game systems award character advancement for accomplishing goals, thus rewarding risk avoidance. But D&D awards character advancement for fighting, and therefore bypassing these kinds of risks is counterproductive.
With respect this is completely wrong, D&D awards Xp for overcoming challenges.
Disarming traps or escaping from an ambush are challenges.

He definitely still makes a good point. The only thing D&D concretely defines as a challenge, some traps excluded certainly, are combat encounters. Basically, many, MANY more sorts of encounters need to have some attempt at CR quantification (as bad as the CR system is anyway) to claim that D&D actively promotes awarding XP for overcoming non-combat encounters.

The_Mad_Linguist

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This phenomenon as a whole appears to be mostly a consequence of D&D's broken leveling system. Other game systems award character advancement for accomplishing goals, thus rewarding risk avoidance. But D&D awards character advancement for fighting, and therefore bypassing these kinds of risks is counterproductive.
With respect this is completely wrong, D&D awards Xp for overcoming challenges.
Disarming traps or escaping from an ambush are challenges.

He definitely still makes a good point. The only thing D&D concretely defines as a challenge, some traps excluded certainly, are combat encounters. Basically, many, MANY more sorts of encounters need to have some attempt at CR quantification (as bad as the CR system is anyway) to claim that D&D actively promotes awarding XP for overcoming non-combat encounters.
I recall seeing either CRs or Encounter Levels given for social interactions in a couple of modules. 

There are also several alternate mechanics (reputation scores, faction points, faith points, influence, et cetera) that advance chiefly or exclusively through noncombat means.
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bkdubs123

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I recall seeing either CRs or Encounter Levels given for social interactions in a couple of modules. 

There are also several alternate mechanics (reputation scores, faction points, faith points, influence, et cetera) that advance chiefly or exclusively through noncombat means.

A couple of modules is not what anyone could consider to be representative of the core XP mechanics of 3.5 D&D. Neither can be considered alternate mechanics that I've honestly never heard of (and I thought I'd at least looked through 90% of the WotC published 3.5 material).

The_Mad_Linguist

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Well, an obvious one is affiliation scores.  The goodies you can pick up are certainly worth spending some time adventuring to recover a lost book hidden in the volcanic mountains of Tsar-Hair-Dome or founding a magical school, since knowledge domain affiliation is badass, and you can't advance your score by crushing skulls. 
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Whisper

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This phenomenon as a whole appears to be mostly a consequence of D&D's broken leveling system. Other game systems award character advancement for accomplishing goals, thus rewarding risk avoidance. But D&D awards character advancement for fighting, and therefore bypassing these kinds of risks is counterproductive.
With respect this is completely wrong, D&D awards Xp for overcoming challenges.
Disarming traps or escaping from an ambush are challenges.

You raise a point that did not escape my attention. And it would be valid if WoTC truly meant it when they said that.

While the written text of the various source books does occasionally give some lip service to the notion that "overcoming" a challenge does not necessarily mean hitting it over the head with a blunt object, the kinds of "challenges" that are listed with explicit guidance on experience rewards are limited to combat encounters, and traps.

While this or that individual GM may take it upon himself to award experience for "overcoming" a cave troll by tricking it instead of killing it, he is going against an entire gaming culture and tradition when he does so, and thus he is unlikely to award as much as the canonical value for killing it. Even if he does, what if an even more clever party manages to bypass the cave troll altogether by figuring out the route through the maze instead? What then? Why does the troll even factor into the equation? Surely the fact that he is there is only peripheral to what the party is trying to do.

(Not to mention that the other great reward in the game, magical swag, can be missed by bypassing irrelevant fights.)

By having explicit, detailed rewards for dumb, hack-and-slash play, and a vague, hand-waving sentence or two about anything else players might do instead, D&D ensures that dumb, hack-and-slash play is what you get.

This is not because players are dumb. On the contrary, it is because they are smart. They figure out quickly what is incentivised, and they do that thing. Not only that, they optimize ways to doing it, until pretty soon no one plays a master of disguise, a contortionist cat burglar, or a zealous, self-flagellating church inquisitor. They're all too busy building a Cleric3/Nonsense Chanter2/Berserker1/Choirboy Sodomizer7, because it'll allow them to persist the Abstract Game Mechanic Rape spell five levels sooner.

It's not their fault. It's the game designer's fault. You always get whatever behaviour you reward.

It even starts to influence the designers as well. Of course they're going to make books full of slightly better ways to gank things that sit around guarding piles of treasure. Because that's what their players have been conditioned to look for. Because their GMs have been conditioned to fill the world with nothing but meatsacks that lie around waiting to be slain.

D&D isn't like living an adventure, or even being in a story. It's a simulation of playing World of Warcraft. There is very little fundamental difference between the four-encounters-per-day, 14-encounters-per-level routine of D&D, and being told to kill 37 Lesser Throbbing Wombats by some stationary whackjob with an exclamation point over his head.

The problem with this kind of treadmill is not only that it's boring. It's that it is a special, insidious kind of boring, a boring that compels people to keep doing it, not because they're having any fun, but because they have been cleverly given the feeling that the fun is about to start any moment now. And they remain in that state forever, clicking away on merlocks, or rolling d20s to behead their 745th orc, not because they are enjoying themselves, but because maybe the next level they'll feel like a badass, or the next area will be interesting, or the next magical item will provide satisfaction. But it won't.

They are a rat, pressing a lever. And then they get online, and listen to other rats pontificate upon the merits of various lever-pressing techniques.

This is not to say that D&D can't be fun. It can be, and often is. But that which is fun in it has nothing to do with it being D&D as opposed to any other roleplaying game. D&D doesn't add anything to the equation, apart from broken mechanics, metagaming, and boredom.

What Sunic is advocating makes sense mathematically, but it leaves out one critical fact, a fact that exists outside of game mechanics. This is the fact that a fight, or anything else, that has been IP proofed is boring. Boring because the outcome is not in doubt. Boring because there is no risk. Boring by design.

Sure, it's set up to win, not to have fun... but why should I have to make that choice? Trying to devise minimal-risk ways of killing people, and then building them, is my job. I get paid to do it, because it's not always fun.

I don't get paid to play RPGs. So there's no reason why we shouldn't incentivize fun things. In fact, that's the whole point. If players were rewarded for making the game exciting, then games would be exciting.