Author Topic: Tiers for gestalt combinations?  (Read 16531 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2011, 12:36:42 AM »
Wasn't the tipping point of Tier 2 whether you could break reality? Isn't that only doable with magic, which means you're a caster? Or are you just talking about the toned down sorcerer classes (warmage, beguiler & Dread Necro).

For the most part, yes, you need magic to start altering the game world (it's not exactly "break reality" so much as it is "completely shift the campaign using class abilities.").  The Binder does it by summoning and endless horde of monsters, some of whom can do stuff like spam rather potent divinations.  The Factotum might be able to do it since they do have access to a lot of nasty spells.  But without any casting at all, I don't see how you're getting there.  You could be a REALLY good fighty type or something, but that's about as far as you're going.  Diplomancer, maybe?

JaronK
Arguably, Factotums already destroy the action economy with Cunning Surge, but simply lack the options to do something amazing with that.  Combine that with something like Warlock, however, and playing with reality becomes quite possible.
Yeah, stick in something to make those actions awesome (like iaijutsu master) and a well optimized factotum can take out the master of the wild hunt at level 13 or so. 
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JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2011, 01:43:42 AM »
Yeah, but that's not really changing the campaign so much.  I mean, a Level 11 Factotum with Darkstalker can basically guarenteed kill almost any dragon without any trouble at all (sneak up to relatively close, Cunning Surge for Spectral Hand + Shivering Touch in the surprise round, ignore SR, do 3d6+Int mod dex damage with no save).  And then of course they can cast Animate Dead and have a really awesome skeleton or zombie.  But that's just not the same as randomly Plane Shifting to a totally different place or such stuff.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2011, 01:49:34 AM »
I was just using the example of taking out something CR+8 as a general example of cunning surge making decent abilities great.
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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2011, 02:14:28 AM »
Yeah, but that's not really changing the campaign so much.  I mean, a Level 11 Factotum with Darkstalker can basically guarenteed kill almost any dragon without any trouble at all (sneak up to relatively close, Cunning Surge for Spectral Hand + Shivering Touch in the surprise round, ignore SR, do 3d6+Int mod dex damage with no save).  And then of course they can cast Animate Dead and have a really awesome skeleton or zombie.  But that's just not the same as randomly Plane Shifting to a totally different place or such stuff.

JaronK
Well, a DWK Factotum 11//Healer 1/Singer of Concordance 10 effectively has Plane Shift at will, you just have to stop by your own, personal demiplane first.

JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2011, 07:29:27 AM »
I was just using the example of taking out something CR+8 as a general example of cunning surge making decent abilities great.

Sure, and it's an amazingly useful ability when combined with classes that take good advantage of standard actions (Factotum 8 combined with Ur Priest is TERRIFYING).   Then again, a good charger can take out stuff well above their CR if they get a shot off too.

And I'm not familiar with Singer of Concordance...

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2011, 07:34:20 AM »
Singer of concordance is a decent full progression PrC from Races of the Dragon, primarily notable for granting some decent domains at second level and having the granddaddy dragon clause in place.
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JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2011, 07:37:34 AM »
Ah, rocking the Dragonblood sneak in clause.  I was wondering how he was sneaking into a PrC at level 2.  Heh, doing that without using an action is pretty hilarious, but I don't think it was the gestalt that made that a bit silly...

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2011, 07:40:52 AM »
Singer of concordance is a decent full progression PrC from Races of the Dragon, primarily notable for granting some decent domains at second level and having the granddaddy dragon clause in place.
You missed the point where the capstone gives you a free, personal demiplane at least 2 levels before Wizards get one.  6 if you use the granddaddy dragon clause.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2011, 07:53:12 AM »
True, but it's not your own personal plane so much as Io letting you crash in his pad.

Still a great bolthole, though.

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Being a demiplane, a Sphere of Concordance is not easily accessible with plane shift or other means of planar travel.  Attempts to reach a sphere without guidance or prior knowledge (or the Singer of Concordance 10th-level class feature) result in the traveler arriving on a random Outer Plane.

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2011, 06:35:02 PM »
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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2011, 04:57:10 AM »
True, but it's not your own personal plane so much as Io letting you crash in his pad.
Well, not quite.  Maybe a rental apartment if you want to put it that way.  It notes that each singer has their own sphere in the sidebar.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2011, 07:04:42 PM »
Speaking of tiers and gestalt... What CR would a gestalt character be in comparison to a normal one?
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JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2011, 12:36:47 AM »
CR?  A Monk//Fighter is nowhere near the challenge of a Druid.  CR won't work well for this.

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2011, 04:14:13 AM »
Even if you've gestalted every single class ever, he's still not going to be able to do everything in a single round.

I've found the hard way that if you throw on too many abilities, you end up severely feat-starved.
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That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
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And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
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lans

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2011, 11:19:07 AM »
Even if you've gestalted every single class ever, he's still not going to be able to do everything in a single round.

Factotum would help with this. Its also not about doing everything every round, its about doing that thing you need to do, every round.
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TheEndIsNear

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2011, 11:59:23 AM »
How would an unarmed/arcane swordsage // druid fare?

Mixster

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2011, 12:55:13 PM »
CR?  A Monk//Fighter is nowhere near the challenge of a Druid.  CR won't work well for this.

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2011, 04:51:54 PM »
Well the CR system is more messed up, than balance among classes.
Commoner 20 with un-opted feats and random gear = what CR ?
I'd bet a level 1 party with a hint a buildy-ness could beat 99% of the combos.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2011, 06:07:02 PM »
So... there's no way to measure any basic CR adjustment? Like for instance +4, or +6 if the classes have synergy?
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Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
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Mixster

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2011, 07:28:44 PM »
So... there's no way to measure any basic CR adjustment? Like for instance +4, or +6 if the classes have synergy?

I usually asses it at +2/+3 for optimised Gestalting. All in all you just get more versatile, not more powerful. (an exception might be the crazy good wizard or Erudite Factotum).
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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