Post RHoD - Lord of the Western Elsir Vale - where to begin?

[Cagemarrow]

An email has been sent, though many GM's have warned me against combining D&D and physics.

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI you sent it to the wrong email address. I figured it out and replied from the one you sent it to, but from now on, send email based stuff to the yahoo email I told you about in the PM, okay?

[Cagemarrow]

Opps, sorry. Just sent it to the one I saw first.

60ft ferris wheel with 6000lbs force, 180 hp. Very nice.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'll have to ask him the numbers on the best way to turn the geyser into energy... but IF you can use trap rules, this uses wayyyyy less magical mojo -- the DM I was making this for is running a pathfinder game, and has basically said 'all that magical stuff you by? expensive stuff for crafting, additives for ink for scribing? Unless it is specified as a particular gem or crystal or something, then it's all residuum, and it comes from mines', so I was trying to MINIMIZE the amount of residuum expended for work done, instead focusing on spending on mundane things that I could EASILY get with the Simulacrum of a Djinn (he vetoed Simulacrum of a Noble Djinn or an Efreet; he didn't want me getting access to infinite Wishes, even with the 3.0e/3.5e 25k gp mundane item limit and the 15k magic item limit in place).

Though I STILL haven't gotten an answer from him about 'How is Glassteel made?'

That stuff is a FREAKING AWESOME building material! As light as Mithral, as Strong as Adamantine, VERY low amounts of friction! Great stuff!

[Cagemarrow]

Well I think I'll be able to use the trap craft rules, which should make the power wheel possible for very cheap.

Now if only I could summon a Druid to provide the spell.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you can do the trap craft rules... LOTS of things open up.  Like I said:

Endure Elements
Prestidigitation
Create Food and Water
Purify Food and Drink
Good Hope
Make Whole
Lesser Restoration
Panacea
Low Light Vision
Superior Darkvision
Mount
Unseen Servant
Unseen Crafter
Floating Disk
(Modified version of Magecraft for touch)
(Modified version of Magecraft for touch & Profession)
(Modified version of Unseen Crafter for Profession)

[Cagemarrow]

So with spell turrets, when they say the spells have to come from the same classes spell list and level, do you think that includes the Chameleon Prc's spell list of All Arcane or Divine spells?

Stone Brick making spell turret 3rd Level - (conj) Wall of Stone, (trans) Fabricate, I need 2 more arcane 3rd level spells each from a different school, thinking Gust of wind to blow away dust and debris from the target work area any other ideas?

This would automatically generate 5 cubic ft of stone bricks every 5 rounds. Gust of wind to clear, Wall of stone to make the material, Fabricate to shape them into bricks, then maybe heightened alarm to make it go bing?

[Cagemarrow]

Hmm, how many of the blockade powered wheels would be needed to move a mobile fortress around? I'm thinking at least 4 would be needed to have the blocks dropped directly into the wheels and provide power to move it along.

With an open wheel design rather than a basket ferris wheel it might be possible to go with a smaller diameter and have the blocks dumped out at the bottom, to have them disappear a few rounds later. Which would leave an awesome looking track in the earth as it moves as well. Add a few more traps and have a fast launching catapult also, use more to provide counter weights and then one to provide ammunition. I know they're wood blocks instead of stone but 2000lbs is a good amount to be hit with no matter what it's made from.

Jacob should probably have been a gnome. . .


Here's my visual design for one of the market buildings. Lower level is the shop and workspace while the upper levels is the merchant's home. Based on pricing from Cityscape I expect it to run 8000 gp market value with materials cost of 1/3rd of that based on mundane item creation pricing. With the Lyre I should be able to construct 8.5 of these a week.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well the blockade wheels basically have the force of a V6.  So they do what a V6 can do in real life..BUT they add a TON of weight (that wood is heavy! as are the anchors!)  But if you want a mobile fortress, there are better ways to get it done than using those. The ferris wheel thing is really better for immobile power sources.  I'll try and figure out the amount of power the geyser function of a Decanter of Endless Water can make at some point..

Anyway, mobile fortress.  Craft an iron ship using fabricate / wall of iron / unseen crafter, and then put a repeating trap of Suspension on it to get it into the air, and enchant it as a stronghold space to get it a little bit of mobility, or many other ways of getting a mobile fortress.  If you REALLY want a mobile fortress, you're going to have to use slightly different tricks... I can do dig some up if you want.

[Cagemarrow]

Well a lot of the trap ideas are going to be on hold for a while. My GM has decided he'd rather not deal with the Landlord feat at the moment so I'm not going to be getting the construction allowance for the stronghold.

Now to decide on a different 9th level feat. I'm debating between Rapid Recovery for Zceryll or Improved Binding to give me access to the 8th level vestiges. Orthos's displacement and breath weapon would be nice to have for the times he can't use the summons directly, but being able to summon creatures every 4 rounds instead of every 5 could be a life saver as well.

Anyone have any recommendations?

[Gavinfoxx]

So do the traps without Landlord, then.  They can come directly out of Wealth By Level, and you'll be fine.  Remember, these traps are Wondrous Items, and your methods of lowering price of Wondrous Items work fine on them, AND the Traps can often be level 1, level 2 spells, with an occasional level 3.  Really, for most of them, you need maybe 300 gold each or so, especially if the primary crafter is a person who has a bunch of 'lower price of crafting' abilities.

[Cagemarrow]

Yep, its just going to require me spend my personal treasure on things that I can't use to generate more wealth based on my GM's previous ruling. He keeps changing his mind on how things are going to work in his game. Here's the latest email I got from him.

dense wood is from Eberron. I keep saying that I don't want players drawing stuff from campaign setting books like Faerun and Eberron. But you keep bring that stuff up? Bronze wood is also in the Arms and Equipment guild so it's OK even though that's a 3.0 book.

Why would a genie know anything about building a wagon? when in it's long genie life was it like "hmm I should pick up the craft woodworking skill and build the best wagon ever" Anyways the genie can summon 20 cubic feet of material 1/day and if that material is a finished product like a wooden ladder or a hemp rope the genie needs to make a craft check which it can do thanks to it's +12 anyone craft and anyone knowledge skill but it can't create multipe things at once. So something like alcohol, which has many components and many steps to create as well as requiring more time then a few minutes. Wouldn't be possible. Of course you could summon each needed component then brew up some beer yourself or get one of your follower to do it but, that not what we're talking about. So if you say genie make me a wagon it will create a wagon out of wood. If you say genie make me a wagon out of bronze wood (assuming Jacob knows
what bronze wood is for some reason) the genie will roll a knowledge and a craft check and if both are successful it'll create a bronze wood wagon which will very heavy by the way, only 10% lighter than steel.

Your summons are intended to show up and fight your enemies then go back where they came from. They're not NPC's they don't volunteer
information.

It's a neat gimick but keep it to simple things.

Here's how I replied to him.

How big of a deal is it really? Jacob is supposed to be filling the role of a wizard/cleric, does this bring him out of character? I thought you wanted to play a game more intricate than smash the monster and loot it and that's what I'm trying to do by using Jacob's abilities in this way.

As far as using the various Campaign books go, its as simple as I have the books, I want to be able to use them. If you want to limit what can be used it should be on a case by case basis, not outright banning. Just because they're in a setting book doesn't mean that they should be banned outright unless you are going to follow those same rules as the GM. We haven't established a specific setting as of yet but have touched on Forgotten Realms at least with the Expedition to the Demon Web Pits, as well as access to the multiverse with touching on Sigil and the World Tree. Sigil says that if items exist in the multiverse they can be purchased there.

I'm drawing on items that are listed as being usable in D&D 3.5 so we have a list of  materials to make things from. I don't want to have to go into the differences in using oak as a construction material as opposed to pine cause that will slow down the game. I'd rather just point to something already stated out. I haven't yet gone through the Dungeon or Dragon magazines but I'm sure there are listings of even more in them.

If you want to rule that more research is needed before they become available that is fine, but outright banning them is a little extreme. As far as research goes I have given Jacob ranks in Knowledge Nature, Craft Woodworking, and Knowledge Architecture and Engineering. He's had access to the Library and Arcane Academy of Brindol for four months, as well as the whispered knowledge of multiple vestiges. All of my supply creation formulas are based on 8 hour work days, he only needs two to sleep so the rest could be spent doing research, talking with carpenters in the city, and anything else that would help the town get made faster and stronger. I don't feel that this is something that has to be done in game, its more of a downtime thing and doesn't need to interfere with everyone else's game time.

There are mentions of Darkwood forests so it does grow "naturally" at least in Faerun. I vaguely remember descriptions in Races of the Wild as well as in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft books.

If I could make permanent plant based items you bet I'd have some skill in making it useful, so I don't see Djinni who are fairly intelligent ignoring that ability of theirs. Maybe not all of them but most would. As immortal beings I don't see it as being out of character for one to have built a ship or castle from scratch as a form of hobby or relaxation, people do that in the real world and there's a lot more work involved than the Djinni would put in. Think of it like putting together Ikea furniture, but creating each part one at a time. It's amazing what can be built with interlocking pieces and construction like this was done far more often in the past than it is today simply because they didn't have access to the precision tools we have today. Jacob would take the time to have drawn out plans with each part indicated and detailed for complicated items. That's what K: Architect & Engineer is for.

Major creation allows for but does not require the creation of a finished item, just a single one at a time. Individual parts can be made if the finished product is going to be too big or it can also be used for completed items that fall within the size/volume limit. The Djinni are creating these things with magic, so they are created as accurately as their craft skills allow. DC's for crafting are not difficult if not making masterwork things and you can take ten on their creation. An appropriate skill would need to be used to create more complicated items but it can be done. Crafting beer isn't inherently more complicated than a finished sword. To be made properly both require heating and cooling, multiple ingredients, and special tools.

I've listed some examples of appropriate skills for things below.

Alchohol - Craft Alchemy - naturally occurs in some jungle fruits, monkeys tend to hunt them down and get drunk off them.
Resin - Craft Alchemy - extracted from Pine sap as well as some jungle trees
Pitch & Tar - Craft Alchemy - extracted from Pine Tree Roots
Bows & Arrows - Craft Bower or Weapon smith
Poisons - Craft Poison Making - extracted from various plant parts
Weapons - Craft Weapon smith
Carpentry - Craft woodworking

As far as being able to ask them questions and use their knowledge skills it would just mean that Jacob would have to take the time to ask them questions, summoning things for information is one of the traditional uses of summoning. The CR of a creature is based on its full abilities, if they didn't want casters calling forth creatures to answer questions or perform tasks they would all be of the smashing and damage type with no Int or skills, they aren't astral constructs. No where in the spell does it say that all they can do is fight. That is only a problem for things that you can't communicate with, and the pseudonatural template ups all of their Int to a minimum of 3 and outsiders with that Int get a language, so he can communicate with them using his Telepathy even if they don't speak a language he knows.

Am I being unreasonable? Is there anything anyone else would recommend for options?

[Gavinfoxx]

[Cagemarrow]

That's the thing, at the moment he doesn't want to allow any Campaign specific options. Eberron or Faerun. Which excludes the majority of usable materials except normal wood, and Bronze wood. Magecraft and Unseen Crafter are also out as those are from Eberron and not reprinted in a non campaign specific book. Its making me more than a little frustrated at this point.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh, okay, non campaign specific? That leaves:

Livewood
Wildwood
Bronzewood
Serrenwood
Darkwood
-Darkwood Derivatives (Leafweave, Darkleaf)
Fey Cherry Wood

Also lighter than iron is GOOD. 10% lighter than iron, same hardness? Awesome (D&D weapon weights are very much on the high side, see: http://thearma.org/essays/weights.htm).  These aren't that heavy, just get thin bits.  Bronzewood can make swords and stuff, so it can be made into thin sheets readily.  Great structural material.

Also note that we use iron and steel as structural materials all the time.  Iron strength wood that is 10% lighter that doesn't rust? Awesome.

And its fine for the djinn to only summon raw materials. Really. Just use the spells in traps (even only the non campaign specific ones!) to dramatically increase everyone's output.

With only these spells. in traps:

Mount
Unseen Servant
Endure Elements
Create Food and Water
Purify Food and Drink
Floating Disk
Superior Darkvision
Prestidigitation
Good Hope
Make Whole
Lesser Restoration
Panacea

Everyone has infinite mule labor for whatever they want, everyone has infinite unseen servants to direct for rote, easy tasks, AND for Aid Another, everyone can work in any weather, NO PEASANTS HAVE TO FARM EVER AND EVEN TEENAGERS OR FARMERS CAN BE USED FOR CRAFTING, Everyone's equipment is always in top condition, Everyone can have perfect hygeine and use magic to clean anything they want, people can haul anything anywhere, people have good morale, people have infinite tasty, healthy food, people are always healthy, people don't need to sleep, people can see perfectly in full darkness... You would totally shoot productivity THROUGH THE ROOF.  Combine that with infinite raw materials from the Djinn and even WITHOUT Magecraft you can still get sooo much more done. Really, infinite materials, and all those bonuses on your workers, and the ability to move 98% of your workforce from 'making food' to 'making anything'?? That's HUGE HUGE HUGE.

[Cagemarrow]

Where is Fey Cherry wood from?

Unfortunately Darkwood, Live wood, and Wildwood are out as major creation only creates non magical non living material, which these don't qualify for. DMG says Darkwood is a rare magical wood, blech and the other two are still living.

Serrenwood is out as Exalted Deeds is a setting specific book in my DM's mind and banned, even though we've faced monsters from both it and Vile Darkness.

[Gavinfoxx]

Fey Cherry Wood is from Dragon Magazine #357.

And Nonmagical as in "not enchanted."  Darkwood buckler's don't have an enhancement bonus and don't detect as having a magical aura to detect magic.  It's really just a normal strength, light wood.... so it's not magical, it's only magical in the sense that it is hard to find and extroardinary.  I don't know WHY they say 'magical' in the description... Also see the earlier edits to earlier posts, try rereading a few of them after refreshing.

[Cagemarrow]

I may have to invest in a Fey Cherry Wood clipping, if my DM will allow it. They'd make for beautiful city streets with permanent endure elements for the people.

I'm still waiting on a response from my DM about my response to his creation limitations.

[Cagemarrow]

Well, my DM's not budging. I have access to Normal wood and Bronze wood as far as special materials go. Argh! Oh well, guess I'll have to get by with alchemical item supplies while adventuring and making adamantine tools for short term uses.

So now on to choosing a replacement feat for my Landlord one, what would people recommend? I'm debating between Rapid Recovery to be able to Summon once every 4 rounds or Improved Binding to get access to the 8th level vestiges? Any other options likely to be incredibly useful?

13th ECL Human Binder6/KotSS 5/Moderate Fey Bloodline 2 - EBL 15
Feats: Able Learner, Fey Heritage, Ignore Special Requirements, WF: Morningstar, Expel Vestige (bonus), Favored Vestige: Zceryll, Leadership, Iron Will (Bloodline)
Flaw: Shaky
Usual Vestiges: Naberous (ebl 15), Zceryll (ebl 16), (open)

[Gavinfoxx]

Bronzewood is fine for structural building, and can make the most intricate weapons and armors of any of the woods. It's as hard as iron and lighter.  Just get a lot of raw material for bronzewood, and some alchemical stuff to coat it to resist fire/acid.

Also reread what I wrote about the magical traps you CAN use, and what that means!  Those are dramatic work multipliers!