Author Topic: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.  (Read 12313 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
The importance?  A DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check is whats required to perform a ritual sacrifice and gain the benefit of a 24-hour Divine Power spell.  The importance of getting this on a War Hulk?  Obvious, War Hulks gain +2 Strength per level in lieu of BAB.  The problem?  War Hulks are fucking STUPID.  For convenience, I will list the important passages here:

Quote from: MinisHB, p23
No Time To Think (Ex): A character with levels in the War Hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether or not he has bought ranks in them previously).  The only exception is the Intimidate skill, which works normally.
Quote from: BoVD, p26-27
Sacrifice Reward System

The default method of playing a War Hulk is most likely to include use of a Cleric dip, to simply be able to use Wands of Divine Power.  That said, such a wand use lasts a mere 7 rounds, while the sacrifice benefit lasts a full 24 hours.  Yes, it's DMM: Persistent Spell cheese without a single caster level.

As of yet, I've only found one way to basically make this an auto-win: Goliath Barbarian 5/War Hulk X w/ Apprentice [Spellcaster].  Apprentice [Spellcaster] gives Knowledge [Religion] as a class skill for all classes.  You also gain Use Magic Device as a class skill for all classes, which opens up the ability to use Wands of Divine Insight.  The total comes out to a +18 mod to Knowledge [Religion] checks, meaning you hit the mark a full 70% of the time.  This circumvents the No Time To Think ability by virtue of the fact that you don't qualify for War Hulk at the exact time you're making the sacrifice, and therefore don't have No Time To Think.  Instead, you gain the full "benefits" of the class only after "Hulking Out" with Mountain Rage, the Goliath Barbarian 1 sub-level ability that makes you Large.

All that said, making it less specific to race and class and less dependent on that wand would be very nice.  It would also be nice to put it on a character that also had their War Hulk abilities 24/7.  Finally, some sort of port-a-priory is pretty well mandatory, since having to stick within a half-day's march of specific buildings is a serious dampener on the usefulness of a War Hulk, who's supposed to be out in the thick of battle, crunching heads.  Ideas?

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2011, 06:45:10 PM »
You could try having someone buff the War Hulk through spells and abilities. I imagine some type of sorcerer/marshal cohort could provide a hefty bonus to intelligence. 

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2011, 06:47:28 PM »
You could try "hulking out" in reverse, and shrinking yourself with compression when you need to buff.

Or get a Fiend of Possesion cohort who performs the ritual then takes over your body (it may be more effective to make the War Hulk the cohort).
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 06:49:59 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2011, 07:02:05 PM »
Your biggest hurdle is
Quote
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2011, 07:18:50 PM »
Item familiar
masterwork item

zugschef

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2011, 07:21:37 PM »
The default method of playing a War Hulk is most likely to include use of a Cleric dip, to simply be able to use Wands of Divine Power. 
i thought the default method was runescarred berserker...

altpersona

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2939
  • BG forum Emperor Ad Litem
    • Altpersona.net
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 07:24:53 PM »
dosnt spell comp have a +20 skill check spell?
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.


The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011, 07:30:41 PM »
dosnt spell comp have a +20 skill check spell?
You're thinking of guidance of the avatar, which is web content.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 07:45:49 PM »
Your biggest hurdle is
Quote
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).
I'm not sure that applies, since what we know isn't necessarily important.  I'm sure there's some evil deity out there that would love to see a giant, lumbering brute smashing people with a giant flail like Ghallager does with watermelons.  If not, then there's always the Jack of All Trades feat, which we can choose to apply after the No Time To Think ability.

The default method of playing a War Hulk is most likely to include use of a Cleric dip, to simply be able to use Wands of Divine Power.
i thought the default method was runescarred berserker...
That probably works, too, but if that book isn't allowed then Cleric is still pretty damn good.

Item familiar
masterwork item
Masterwork item is something to keep in mind, but we need more than that in the long-run.  Item Familiar could work, and is worth looking into.  Perhaps an Intelligent item could be even better?

dosnt spell comp have a +20 skill check spell?
You're thinking of guidance of the avatar, which is web content.
3.0 web content that was arguably updated to Divine Insight, given that they're virtually identical in all aspects other than the magnitude of the bonus they have.

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 07:50:59 PM »
I don't think you can do it RAW, without simply getting rid of the No Time to Think rule.

You could get rid of your Ex traits through befriending a Sahruuk, but down that route lies only cheese.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 07:52:22 PM »
Doesn't Jack of All Trades let you make checks in all skills as if you had 0.5 ranks in them?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 08:01:24 PM »
Doesn't Jack of All Trades let you make checks in all skills as if you had 0.5 ranks in them?
Essentially, yes, and since you get to apply your abilities in the most favorable way then it should circumvent any potential issues with this being a Trained Only skill check.

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 08:02:51 PM »
If you're a dwarf War Hulk with Ancestral Knowledge, you can just make knowledge checks untrained.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Phoenix00

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 09:51:30 PM »
Jack of All Trades Feat to allow you to do a knowledge check even if it is untrained.  This is very important else you can do it due to the rules of knowledge checks

Absent Minded (+1 to all knowledge checks).  It is a trait, good luck get your dm to allow this
A masterwork item gives you a +2 bonus for only 50 gp
Book of All Knowledge (3,000 gp market price, Complete Champion p. 142) can give a +10 insight bonus to a Knowledge check, after perusing the book for 2d4 hours, 1d4 hours if you worship Boccob.  Note you are considered trained in this check  even if you normally don't
Tome of Worldly Memory (1,500 gp market price, Magic Item Compendium p.190) gives a +5 competence bonus to a Knowledge check, after persuing the book for 1 minute 3/day. If you have 5 ranks in the skill in question, it only requires a standard action.
Lore of the Gods (Cleric 2, Complete Champion p124) gives you a +5 or +10 insight bonus to knowledge checks.  Range is personal, but a ring of spell storing fixes that
Guidance of the Avatar (Cleric 2, web, 3.0) gives you a competence bonus of +20.  This spell is very different from Divine Insight in two ways.  It is touch instead of a personal spell.  It is also Competence bonus instead of an insight bonus.
Draconic Aura can give you a bonus to knowledge checks
Dragonfire Adept can give you a +6 bonus to knowledge
One of the vestiges (Dantalion if I remember) gives you a bonus to knowledge checks.  If i remember it is +8 the downside it is a 5th level vestige.
Weapon of Legacy, Ability Level A, +5 competence bonus to a skill check
Weapon of Legacy, Ability Level E, +10 competence bonus to a skill check
Weapon of Legacy, Ability Level G, +15 competence bonus to a skill check

Headband of Lore located here doesn't work due to you having to have 1 rank in the skill.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 10:34:56 PM »
Thanks for that.

Book of All Knowledge (3,000 gp market price, Complete Champion p. 142) can give a +10 insight bonus to a Knowledge check, after perusing the book for 2d4 hours, 1d4 hours if you worship Boccob.  Note you are considered trained in this check  even if you normally don't
Awesome because it removes the Trained Only aspect.  Bad because it requires SO FREAKING LONG.  Maybe combine with a Ring of Sustenance, so you can pursue it while everyone else is asleep?  Worshipping Boccob really isn't feasible, unless I can key one of these things to an evil knowledge deity like FR's Velsharoon.  That'd be one hell of a backstory...

Tome of Worldly Memory (1,500 gp market price, Magic Item Compendium p.190) gives a +5 competence bonus to a Knowledge check, after persuing the book for 1 minute 3/day. If you have 5 ranks in the skill in question, it only requires a standard action.
Spectacular.  I'll see about adding this to a resource in the OP.

Lore of the Gods (Cleric 2, Complete Champion p124) gives you a +5 or +10 insight bonus to knowledge checks.  Range is personal, but a ring of spell storing fixes that
For this specific purpose, I think I like Divine Insight better.

Guidance of the Avatar (Cleric 2, web, 3.0) gives you a competence bonus of +20.  This spell is very different from Divine Insight in two ways.  It is touch instead of a personal spell.  It is also Competence bonus instead of an insight bonus.
That is pretty potent.  Does it remove the Trained Only requirement?

Draconic Aura can give you a bonus to knowledge checks
As can Motivate Intelligence, both are good to keep an eye on.

Dragonfire Adept can give you a +6 bonus to knowledge
...and you can make them untrained.  Win.

One of the vestiges (Dantalion if I remember) gives you a bonus to knowledge checks.  If i remember it is +8 the downside it is a 5th level vestige.
Yes, a little steep and doesn't allow you to make them untrained.

Weapon of Legacy, Ability Level A, +5 competence bonus to a skill check
Weapon of Legacy, Ability Level E, +10 competence bonus to a skill check
Weapon of Legacy, Ability Level G, +15 competence bonus to a skill check

Headband of Lore located here doesn't work due to you having to have 1 rank in the skill.

All good notes.

Tome of Worldly Memory + Draconic Knowledge invocation + Masterwork Tool (Sacrificial blade) = +13

Easy circumstance bonuses specific to rituals:
Ceremony lasts an hour: +1
Ceremony conducted on an Altar: +2
Subject has 1-5 HD: +1
Cumulative Total: +17

Less easy circumstance bonuses specific to rituals:
Desecrated Area: +1
Conducted publicly: +1
Conducted before 10 followers: +1
Subject is good-aligned: +1
Subject has 6-10 HD: +2
Subject has 11-15 HD: +3
Cumulative Total: +21-+23

I think that does it.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2011, 10:41:51 PM »
Shake a rod of wonder until you shrink down and no longer qualify for warhulk?

As an added bonus, you'll turn green.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2011, 10:55:41 PM »
Shake a rod of wonder until you shrink down and no longer qualify for warhulk?

As an added bonus, you'll turn green.
Frankly, this green giant isn't all that jolly.

Big concern now is what qualifies as a "temple," and how to make one that is relatively portable.  Remember that this guy is going to be large and have an absurd Strength score, so it's not completely out-of-the-question for this guy to carry a small house on his back.  Maybe a portable stronghold via enveloping pit is the best way to go?

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2011, 11:01:26 PM »
A completely different way of doing this is simply to get a Warchanter in the party, as they can easily set your BAB to an appropriate level.

JaronK

Maat_Mons

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1041
  • What is a smile but a grimace of happiness?
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2011, 11:34:34 PM »
Sacrificial skill (Book of Vile Darkness 102) gives you a +5 untyped bonus.  A sacrificial knife (Book of Vile Darkness 113) gives you a +3 competence bonus.  Surge of fortune (Complete Champion 128) and aura of perfect order (Tome of Battle 57) could also be beneficial, but are hard to get. 

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2011, 11:35:03 PM »
Item familiar.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.