Author Topic: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?  (Read 10278 times)

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DavidWL

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What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« on: January 28, 2011, 08:36:26 PM »
What should be the standard book/rule set?  

Example:  If I post and say, "I was thinking of a lockdown, Dex-based gish ... any advice", what books are assumed legal?  Further, let's hypothosize that it is just a build for gitts and shiggles.  (Because if it were an actual campaign, we'd get more specific advice).

Currently:  I tend to think, all the "standard" WotC 3.5 material, as well as un-updated 3.0.

However, for this Board, what about quasi-official stuff:  Kingdoms of Kalamar, Dragonlance, etc.

Also, there are some house rules which are pretty darned awesome, and psuedo-official (or should be!) on the boards:
- PlzBreakMyCampaign's Dirty Handbook Fixes
- Hyperconsciousness
- Tomes by Frank & K

"True" 3rd party still off limits (AEG, Mongoose, etc.)

I'm thinking of 2 sets of baselines:

High-Powered
  • 3 custom sources above (Hyperconsciousness, Dirty Handbook Fixes, Tomes)
  • All setting specific including Kingdoms of Kalamar & Dragonlance
  • Dragon Mag.
  • bloodlines & LA Buyoff & flaws & variant classes/races
  • un-updated 3.0
Mid-Powered
  • 3.5 WotC only (web articles included)
  • no flaws, no bloodlines, no LA Buyoff.  
  • (Variant classes/races ok)


Thoughts?  Other stuff that should be included or excluded?  Just so that I'm on the same proverbial page as everyone else ...

Best,
David
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bearsarebrown

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 08:44:10 PM »
  • What people think is Official WotC (excludes Dragon Mag, Dragonlance, Kalamar)
  • What is Official WotC
  • Homebrew
Things commonly banned: BoED/BoVD, 3.0 specific, setting specific, Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, Binding. Either because of misunderstandings or not having the book. Most of these bans are stupid.

Those are the only three. Separating it by power doesn't make sense. I can run a Tier 5 campaign and allow Dragon Magazine and I can run a Tier 1 campaign core only. In addition, a lot of people, regardless of the type of game, exclude all homebrew. It should never be something assumed to be allowed.

Bozwevial

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2011, 12:24:03 AM »
I'm not entirely sure that there needs to be a standard set. What DMs allow varies wildly from group to group. If you're referring to having one in place for building exercises/theoretical builds, everyone pretty much just uses 3.5, un-updated 3.0, and anything else relevant. Semi-official works show up from time to time, but usually only to showcase some particularly choice tidbit from the works in question.

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2011, 12:45:13 AM »
My ideal rules:
1) Expanded Core (SRD (UA stuff by campaign only), PHB II, DMG II, XPH, and all Monster Manuals)
2) All Completes
3) Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Spell Compendium, and Magic Item Compendium
4) All internet resources related to the above works.
5) Dungeon/Dragon magazine material on a case-by-case basis.
6) Potentially a DM selected addition that is appropriate for the setting, such as DotU for an Underdark campaign or LoM for a campaign featuring lots of Mind Flayers.
7) Each player can select one additional book* to add to the above.  At creation, they alone get access to it.  Afterwards, all players can access it.

*Explicit exceptions, these books are NEVER allowed: Serpent Kingdoms, Savage Species

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2011, 12:50:16 AM »
Everything WotC has published (with the exceptions of Serpent Kingdoms, Dragon Compendium, some portions of Savage Species, and anything from Forgotten Realms).


Dragon and Dungeon magazines are off-limits. Frank&K Tomes are sometimes allowed if I feel like a day of Rocket Tag, but not always. As for Dragonlance; If its an item then I just need a quote. Classes and feats are a separate issue.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, 12:23:44 PM »
We have a pretty coherent "standard" which is all 3.5 WotC books.  So, we rarely allow Dragon stuff, unless it's to help out a specific build or concept that needs it -- I guess that's case by case basis.  We also allow some 3.0 but not updated material -- generally the less broken parts of BoVD and BoED, but we also tend to shy away from that as well.  It works well for us. 

Personally, I think things are somewhat randomly distributed in RPGs, and so dislike the idea of banning things based on what book they show up in.  I mean, Darkstalker happens to live in Lords of Madness, but it doesn't have anything necessarily to do w/ aberrations.  A dragon-hunting Rogue would want it badly.  The bodyguard feats in DotU are an even better example of that. 

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 06:49:13 PM »
I am remembered. It makes me happy enough to dump this. :D

There are several standards. The "legal" standard is whatever is legal. I should have given this info dump months ago but I never got around to making a thread for it, which I still might to:

What's Legal by categories of decreasing acceptability:
Core[spoiler]
PHB
DMG
MM[/spoiler]
Accessible for free
[spoiler]SRD
Web Enhancements (I count atleast 43 seperate, useful WotC pages)[/spoiler]
Generic 3.5 Supplements[spoiler]BoED
BoVD
CAd
CAr
CC
CD
      Ci
CM
CP
CS
CW
DM
DMC
DMG2
DotU
Dr
      Du
EE
ELH
EoE
EPH
FCI
FCII
FF
      Fr
HoB
HoH
LM
LoM
MH
MIC
MM2
MM3
MM4
MM5
MoI
PH2
RC
RoD
RoS
RotD
RotW
      Sa
      Sto
ToB
ToM
UA
WoL

Note: Several of the books from 'series.' If the series isn't listed consecutively, it is marked.[/spoiler]
Generic Unupdated 3.0 Supplements[spoiler]AEG
DD
DotF
EA
MotP
MotW
PlH
SBG
SF
SS
TB [/spoiler]
Adventure Specific[spoiler]AEoS
BoBS
BofFK
CoP
CotSQ
CTotW

DH
EH
EotLQ
EtCR
EttDP
EttRoG
EtU
FaT    (living greyhawk)
FLDG
FLFotD
FLHP
FLTFoR
FLtFR
FoF
FotY
FoW
GotEC

HoNS
LotIF
MotM
Mys
RHoD
RttToEE
SaS
SC
SGoS
SiD
SiS
SoG
SotHH
SotLW
SSL
StS
TT
VotGD
WotVB
[/spoiler]
Campaign Specific[spoiler]CoSW
CoR
CoV

DCS
DoE
DoF
Dra
ECS
FN
FP
FoE

FRCS
Gh
LEoF
LoD

MoE
MoF
Mon

OA
PGtE
PGtF
PoF

RoE
RoF
Sh
ShS
SK
SM

SoS
SoX

UE
Und
[/spoiler]
Licensed[spoiler]
Dragon Magazine issues 269-308 (3.0), 309-360 (3.5)
Dungeon Magazine issues 90-154?[/spoiler]
Licensed and Campaign Specific[spoiler]
AoM
BoK(R)

Diablo II Diablerie
Diablo II To Hell and Back
DoK
HOotS
KoD (simple adventure)
KOoA
LotT
RoA
SoS's (simple adventure)
ToHS
WotL

[/spoiler]


Not Legal:
Lapsed Liscenses and Campaign Specific[spoiler]
Kingdoms of Kalamar books
Ravenloft Campaign Setting books[/spoiler]
Never was legal (aka 3rd party)
[spoiler]Hyperconscious (actually good)
Book of Feats (example of laughable balance)
Homebrew (aka everything else. Even I made a base and prestige class. GitP has a few good ones)[/spoiler]


Arbitrary Campaign Coloring:
[spoiler]Rokugan (spelling?)
Manifest
Dragonlance
Eberron
Faerun[/spoiler]


My acronyms are WotC's (Magic of Faerun vs Monsters of Faerun) but longer for ease of looking up:
[spoiler]AEG   Arms and Equipment Guide
AEoS    Anauroch: The Empire of Shade
AoM   Age of Mortals
BoBS   Bastion of Broken Souls
BoED    Book of Exalted Deeds
BoK Bestiary of Kyrnn
BotFK    Barrow of the Forgotten King
BoVD    Book of Vile Darkness
CAd    Complete Adventurer
CAr    Complete Arcane
CC    Complete Champion
CD    Complete Divine
Ci    Cityscape
CM    Complete Mage
CTotW    Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave
CoP   City of Peril
CoR    Champions of Ruin
CoSW   City of Splendors: Waterdeep
CotSQ    City of the Spider Queen
CoV    Champions of Valor
CP    Complete Psionic
CS    Complete Scoundrel
CW    Complete Warrior
DCS    Dragonlance Campaign Setting
DD    Deities and Demigods
DH    Deep Horizon
DM    Dragon Magic
DMC   Dragon Magazine Compendium
DMG   Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5
DMG2    Dungeon Master's Guide II
DoE    Dragons of Eberron
DoF    Dragons of Faerûn
DoK    Dragons of Krynn
DotF    Defenders of the Faith: A Guidebook to Clerics, Paladins
DotU    Drow of the Underdark
Dr    Draconomicon
Dra    Dragonmarked
Du    Dungeonscape
EA    Enemies and Allies
ECS    Eberron Campaign Setting
EE    Elder Evils
ELH   Epic Level Handbook
EoE    Exemplars of Evil
EofLQ    Eyes of the Lich Queen
EPH    Expanded Psionics Handbook
EtCR   Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
EttDP    Expedition to the Demonweb Pits
EttRoG    Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
EtU    Expedition to Undermountain
FCI    Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss
FCII   Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells
FF    Fiend Folio
FLDG   Fantastic Locations: Dragondown Grotto
FLFoR    Fantastic Locations: Fields of Ruin
FLFotD    Fantastic Locations: Fane of the Drow
FLHP    Fantastic Locations: Hellspike Prison
FLtFR    Fantastic Locations: The Frostfell Rift
FN   Five Nations
FoE    Faiths of Eberron
FoF   Forge of Fury, The
FotY    Fortress of the Yuan-Ti
FoW    Forge of War, The
FP    Faiths & Pantheons
Fr    Frostburn
FRCS    Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Gh    Ghostwalk
GotEC    Grasp of the Emerald Claw
HoB    Heroes of Battle
HoH    Heroes of Horror
HoNS    Heart of Nightfang Spire
HOotS    Holy Orders Of The Stars
KoD    Key Of Destiny
KOoA   Knightly Orders Of Ansalon.pdf
LEoF    Lost Empires of Faerûn
LM    Libris Mortis: The Book of the Dead
LoD    Lords of Darkness
LoM    Lords of Madness
LotIF    Lord of the Iron Fortress
LotT    Legends Of The Twins.pdf
MH    Miniatures Handbook
MIC    Magic Item Compendium
MM   Monster Manual v.3.5
MM2    Monster Manual II
MM3    Monster Manual III
MM4    Monster Manual IV
MM5    Monster Manual V
MoE    Magic of Eberron
MoF   Magic of Faerûn
MoI    Magic of Incarnum
Mon    Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn
MotM   Mysteries of the Moonsea
MotP    Manual of the Planes
MotW    Masters of the Wild: Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids, Rangers
OA    Oriental Adventures
PGtE    Player's Guide to Eberron
PGtF    Player's Guide to Faerûn
PH2    Player's Handbook II
PHB   Player's Handbook v.3.5
PlH    Planar Handbook
PoF    Power of Faerûn
RC    Rules Compendium
RHoD    Red Hand of Doom
RoA    Races of Ansalon
RoD    Races of Destiny
RoE    Races of Eberron
RoF   Races of Faerûn
RoS    Races of Stone
RotD    Races of the Dragon
RotW    Races of the Wild
RttToEE   Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil
Sa    Sandstorm
SaS    Song and Silence: A Guidebook to Bards and Rogues
SBG   Stronghold Builder's Guidebook
SC    Sunless Citadel, The
SF    Sword and Fist: A Guidebook to Monks and Fighters
SGoS    The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Sh    Sharn: City of Towers
ShS    Shining South
SiD    Speaker in Dreams, The
SiS    Sinister Spire, The
SK    Serpent Kingdoms
SM    Silver Marches
SoG    Sons of Gruumsh
SoS    Secrets of Sarlona
SoS's    Spectre Of Sorrows.pdf
SotHH   Scourge of the Howling Horde
SotLW   Shadows of the Last War
SoX    Secrets of Xen'drik
SS    Savage Species
SSL    Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land
Sto    Stormwrack
StS    Standing Stone, The
TB    Tome and Blood: A Guidebook to Wizards and Sorcerers
ToB    Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
ToHS   Towers Of High Sorcery.pdf
ToM    Tome of Magic
TT   The Twilight Tomb
UA    Unearthed Arcana
UE   Unapproachable East
Und    Underdark
VotGD    Voyage of the Golden Dragon
WoL   Weapons of Legacy
WotL   War Of The Lance.pdf
WotVB    Whispers of the Vampire's Blade[/spoiler]


Note: I have excluded books like Diablo II Campaign Setting that have no unique crunch unless they also had large adventures in them. Full listing here:
[spoiler]Book of Challenges: Dungeon Rooms, Puzzles, and Traps
Barrow of the Forgotten King
City of the Spider Queen
Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave
D&D Gazetteer
Deep Horizon
Enemies and Allies (good for laughing at default characters though)
Explorer's Handbook
Fantastic Locations: Dragondown Grotto
Fantastic Locations: Fane of the Drow
Fantastic Locations: Fields of Ruin
Fantastic Locations: The Frostfell Rift
Forge of Fury, The
Grasp of the Emerald Claw
Hero Builder's Guidebook
Heart of Nightfang Spire
Lord of the Iron Fortress
Mysteries of the Moonsea
Power of Faerûn
Red Hand of Doom
Stronghold Builder's Guidebook
Speaker in Dreams, The
Sons of Gruumsh
Shadows of the Last War
Standing Stone, The
Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land
The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Sunless Citadel, The
The Twilight Tomb
Voyage of the Golden Dragon
Whispers of the Vampire's Blade
Epic Insights Compilation
Fright at Tristor
Map Folio I
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer[/spoiler]




If I forgot any, let me know. I need a complete listing of the Dragonlance 2nd party books, as well as double-checking on simple adventure & coloring. Also what is the exact 3.0 to 3.5 break in Dungeon and Dragon magazines again?

Finally to make sure "Living" Greyhawk is the default, non-campaign specific setting, right?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 04:40:30 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
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[/Spoiler]

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Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
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It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 07:41:09 PM »
Eh, I'd argue that anything that was licensed when it was put out should count as being licensed.

Also, you should probably include a link to the free D&D handbook.
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fuinjutsu

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 07:48:25 PM »
My take is "tell me your basic build idea, and what you plan to do with it."

balance the builds, not the options.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Maat_Mons

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 08:17:42 PM »
I need a complete listing of the Dragonlance 2nd party books, as well as double-checking on simple adventure & coloring. Also what is the exact 3.0 to 3.5 break in Dungeon and Dragon magazines again?

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 06:48:05 PM »
Thanks for those. You are correct about Dragons of Krynn. There is also the key of destiny simple adventure. Do I have the 3.0-4.0 magazine numbers correct?
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Maat_Mons

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 09:49:52 PM »
Dragon 359 was the last one published by Paizo.  Dragon 273 appears to be entirely 2nd edition, except for the final installment of the Countdown to 3rd Edition article series.  You may also want to include Dragon Annual.  I believe Dragon Annual 5 and 6 were 3rd edition, and all others were 2nd edition or earlier. 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 09:52:02 PM by Maat_Mons »

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 10:18:52 PM »
Some years ago i had a similar thread on the wizard's boards. I think I have kept an archived version. If I find it, I'll upload it here.
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Mixster

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 03:14:56 AM »
I disagree with any house rules assumed as a "standard" set. Because that would dilute the topic.

Giving help to a fighter with tome feats is pretty different from giving help to someone without them.

That probably means I agree with PlzBreakMyCampaign
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 03:18:25 AM »
I disagree with any house rules assumed as a "standard" set. Because that would dilute the topic.

I think everyone assumes that monks are proficient with their unarmed attacks, and that multiclass xp penalties aren't used.
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Mixster

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 03:22:55 AM »
I disagree with any house rules assumed as a "standard" set. Because that would dilute the topic.

I think everyone assumes that monks are proficient with their unarmed attacks, and that multiclass xp penalties aren't used.

Yeah, but that is out of sheer lazyness.

I've seen games played with multiclass xp penalties. Just for sticking to the book.

I think most people who see you play monk suggest you do not, or take a fighter or swordsage dip which would grant them unarmed attacks.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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snakeman830

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 03:35:29 AM »
I think that for these boards, what we pull from is any WotC 3.5/unupdated 3.0 unless an actual booklist is given.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Suzerain

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 04:35:12 AM »
I think that for these boards, what we pull from is any WotC 3.5/unupdated 3.0 unless an actual booklist is given.
Hmm. The pattern I've seen is the following:


All WotC-published 3.5 material (excluding Dragon).

General silliness is presumed out of the question (i.e. all tricks in the dirty tricks handbook somehow will be nonfunctional).

If the character in question wants to be a blaster, War Mage (AoM) is suggested.

If the character in question wants to be a shaper, ignoring CPsi is suggested.

If the character in question wants to do psionics (but doesn't want to go Thrallherd/Slayer), Hyperconscious is suggested.

If the character is otherwise under-supported with the above material, Dragon or 3.0 material is suggested.

For some niche builds, 3rd party material may be suggested (I can think of: additional 3rd-party vestiges and some Tome material).


In general, I think the 'exoticness' of the sources depends on how much support a build needs to be effective (i.e. on par with the power level in a campaign). And I think that's very much optimal.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 04:41:53 AM »
Quote
In general, I think the 'exoticness' of the sources depends on how much support a build needs to be effective (i.e. on par with the power level in a campaign). And I think that's very much optimal.

I personally rather like Kalamar stuff (for early 3.0 it's remarkably well balanced), but it's so hard to find the books now that I don't suggest it particularly often.  So I suppose how exotic a source is is partially based upon how easy the books are to get - eberron splats, for example, are easier to obtain than ravenloft or dragonlance.


« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 04:43:52 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
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Suzerain

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Re: What should be the standard "book set" / "rule set"?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2011, 04:58:38 AM »
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In general, I think the 'exoticness' of the sources depends on how much support a build needs to be effective (i.e. on par with the power level in a campaign). And I think that's very much optimal.

I personally rather like Kalamar stuff (for early 3.0 it's remarkably well balanced), but it's so hard to find the books now that I don't suggest it particularly often.  So I suppose how exotic a source is is partially based upon how easy the books are to get - eberron splats, for example, are easier to obtain than ravenloft or dragonlance.

Good point. I suggest that if you find that special something someone needs in one of those though... mention it? Can't hurt, can it.