Thought experiment: No Core Magic

[Littha]

Is anybody banned from GitP?

I am, twice

[bkdubs123]

This sounds like an awesome experiment and potential campaign setting. I love the idea.

I'd say allow Factotums, just make sure you force them to choose a variant to Arcane Dilettante which grants them inspiration fueled maneuvers or incarnum or shadowcasting or invocations or soul binding, etc.

I might even be interested in playing in a PbP of this if you still need players/if there is still interest in starting a game.

[Midnight_v]

Is anybody banned from GitP?

I don't have an account. I can create one easily enough, though.
You missed knight, too, BTW. And monk. Poor, poor monk.
At the moment, I think the chars are:

Gods_Trick: Truenamer
Midnight_v: ??
Littha: ?? / Future Shadow Sentinel
Amechra: Warlock / future Io7V
The_Mad_Linguist(?): ??
Me: Crusader/Binder or Incarnate/DFA

EDIT: Expected final level? Most PbPs I've played usually don't go further than the initial level, but for this kind of game I'd think that staying at level 4 is kind of moot. That said, for a first try, levels 1-10 should be reasonably safe even with the lack of magic items, given enough optimization, so staying around level 4 has some things in its favor.

True.
Hmm... what book is shadow sentinel I was thinking of trying a shadow caster, looks rough.
I note that we only have one melee, so I'll look at what all we have there too, if shadow sentinel is a prc of the shadow caster or whatever.
Oh... and soulknife likely counts. . .  

[lans]

I was going to try to get to at least 10-14 range, even if it takes some half hazared reasons for leveling up. Ie training montage

Does anybody have any problems with character creation guidelines that I layed out? I wanted anybody playing shadowcaster to feel the piddling that they get till 7th level, but didn't want to start too low. I think standard point buy is a necessity due to this being a test type of deal. I didn't really want to allow flaws, but I figured a bonus feat wouldn't skew things too much.

[lans]

double post.

[Shadeseraph]

Sounds good for me. Would Soulcaster be allowed for DFA? If so, which would be the new prerequisites?
Old ones (imposible ones):
-Able to cast an arcane spell of 2nd level or higher
-Incarnum Spellshaping (feat, requires ability to cast 1st level spells).

[lans]

So incarnum/DFA? Sounds all right.

[Gods_Trick]

I might take a level or two or Marshall or Incarnate, but we'll see. Ians, which fix for the Truenamer are you using? Does it specifically call out Truenamer as arcane or divine for PrC'ing purposes?

[lans]

I think I'll go with the 1.5x CR one, its the simplest and easiest to do.

I'll start a thread after we get character creation stuff finalized, people get characters in, and after I get a new power cord for my laptop.

The laptop should take a few days, try to get the other stuff done.
Character creation wise I could go with level 5 or 6 instead of 4 if people prefer. I think thats the only real big issue, unless somebody has reason for a different point buy.

I also don't want to deal with level adjustment for this.

[Shadeseraph]

I have no problem with the point buy system. In fact, I prefer it most of the time.

I have no problem playing any level. DFA/Incarnate should be reasonably playable at most levels and not very item dependant, but starting at level 6 can make me go back to the Crusader/Binder, which can be a nice idea depending on the group configuration.

Also, this:

Would Soulcaster be allowed for DFA? If so, which would be the new prerequisites?
Old ones (imposible ones):
-Able to cast an arcane spell of 2nd level or higher
-Incarnum Spellshaping (feat, requires ability to cast 1st level spells).

And, can I use metabreath feats with the DFA breath if I somehow qualify? I was thinking on using Dragonborn (Heart Aspect) for this.

Lastly, here or in GitP?

[Amechra]

I'm thinking here. GitP essentially locks threads a little too fast for my tastes.

Though I'll play over there if needs be.

[bkdubs123]

A Factotum 3/Warblade X might be interesting especially coupled with a Trip/Lockdown build. I might need help optimizing it, but I like the sound of this.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Though I'll play over there if needs be.

Better be safe and do it here. Mentioning anything important, real, or wholesome and it could just disappear one day ... along with your account.

I'll give the pbp a shot if some hellfire nukage is needed. I maintain that Astaroth + Karsus makes a binder a better crafter (and earlier) than a warlock.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I maintain that Astaroth + Karsus makes a binder a better crafter (and earlier) than a warlock.

It wasn't my fault!  This time!

[bkdubs123]

Anyone have a Warblade Crackdown build laying around I can look at? Even better, what about a Factotum/Warblade/Eternal Blade?

EDIT: I'm considering going with a White Raven/Crackdown build, or a White Raven/Imperious Command build if either are plausible using Factotum 3/Warblade X as the build stub.

[Midnight_v]

Okay so solidly: What level are we starting at 4? or 5?
Lans. . . I looked at the shadowcaster handbook and a few other resources
and they pretty much say "Don't play this from level 1" thats hardcore.
Also do we use it as in the book or the unnofficial author fix.
Aside from that yeah. . . some kind of swordsman is what I'll shoot for
so yeah what level. I guess he left it to us, in a way... anyone really care?
Bkdubs are you playing now? Whats that put us at 7 chars?

Gods_Trick: Truenamer
Midnight_v: Shadowcaster, or Melee Warrior
Littha: ?? / Future Shadow Sentinel
Amechra: Warlock / future Io7V
The_Mad_Linguist(?): ??
Me: Crusader/Binder or Incarnate/DFA
Bkdubs123: Factotum?/Warblade?
 

[bkdubs123]

Bkdubs are you playing now? Whats that put us at 7 chars?

Gods_Trick: Truenamer
Midnight_v: Shadowcaster, or Melee Warrior
Littha: ?? / Future Shadow Sentinel
Amechra: Warlock / future Io7V
The_Mad_Linguist(?): ??
Me: Crusader/Binder or Incarnate/DFA
Bkdubs123: Factotum?/Warblade?
 

I'd like to play, yeah, and another warrior type would help round the group out nicely.

[Shadeseraph]

Anyone have a Warblade Crackdown build laying around I can look at? Even better, what about a Factotum/Warblade/Eternal Blade?

There are some crackdown builds in the ToB build compendium, back in the WotC boards, but most of them use standstill for the "lock" part of the build. I'd rather not suggest using trip for the lockdown part, though, because there aren't many ways to change size given the lack of magic, which rather limits what you can trip.

As for level, I don't care. Both characters are fairly playable at almost every level. Without casters, the difference in power between level 4 and level 6 is not that great, though. Lower level can be better for starters, so we don't notice too much the lack of magic items and lans can gauge the power of the party better.

By the way, VoP can be interesting, now that so many items are banned and consumables aren't that interesting.

and, well, I'm gonna play safe, and use non-tricky mechanics, to avoid discussions.

Given the amount of fighters, Incarnate/DFA is winning by now (for BFC and utility). And I have the story for her, given the world .

[bkdubs123]

Anyone have a Warblade Crackdown build laying around I can look at? Even better, what about a Factotum/Warblade/Eternal Blade?

There are some crackdown builds in the ToB build compendium, back in the WotC boards, but most of them use standstill for the "lock" part of the build. I'd rather not suggest using trip for the lockdown part, though, because there aren't many ways to change size given the lack of magic, which rather limits what you can trip.

Good point. Looks like Imperious Command it is then. I'll come up with a 4th level build later today. The good news that its less feat intensive. The bad news is fear immunities, but I'm okay with that. I'll still have White Raven Tactics to fall back on eventually.

Build stub here, assuming things work the way I think they do I should be good to go.

[Shadeseraph]

[/spoiler]
Neutral Good Warforged Dragonborn (Senses Aspect)
DFA 5 / Incarnate 2 / Soulcaster 10

Str 8 (0)
Dex 12 (6)
Con 21 (13) + level bonuses
Int 11 (3)
Wis 6 (0)
Cha 14 (10)

Traits:
-Absent Minded
-Slow

Flaw: Non-combatant

Feats:
1-Entangling Breath
1-Air Heritage
3-Ability Focus (Breath Weapon)
6-Incarnum Spellshaper
9-Flyby Attack
12-Double Chakra
15-Improved Initiative

Invocations:
-Endure Exposure
-Draconic Knowledge
-Humanoid Shape
-Walk Unseen
-Chilling Fog
-Baleful Geas

Skills:
-Diplomacy
-Intimidate
-Use Magic Device
-Bluff
[/spoiler]
This character mostly plays as a mobile BFC; is fairly able to tank thanks to AC, saves and sky high HP; has some limited healing abilities; and is pretty good as a party face and decent as a Know-It-All (though I can change that to specialize as party face, adding together decent Cha + Beguiling Influence + Silvertongue Mask, for a +21 at 4th level to bluff and diplomacy, and +15 to intimidate).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ryhel, Scion of the Water Dragon
[spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Neutral Good Half Elf Dragonborn (Winged Aspect) (Intermediate Water Elemental Bloodline)
Binder 4 / Crusader 1 / Bloodline 1 / Crusader +2 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 4 (Amon) / Bloodline +1 / Knight of the Sacred Seal +1 / Eternal Blade 1

Str 15 (8) +1(bloodline)
Dex 12 (6)
Con 16 (6)
Int 10 (2)
Wis 8 (0)
Cha 16 (10)

Traits:
-Plucky
-Stout

Skills:
-Gather Information
-Intimidate
-Knowledge (Religion)
-Sense Motive

Flaw: Shaky

Feats:
1-Combat Reflexes
1-Standstill
3-Weapon Focus (Glaive)
4(Binder)-Improved Binding
4(Bloodline)-Power Attack
6-Entangling Exhalation
9-Leap Attack
12-Improved Bullrush
15-Shock trooper

Maneuvers:
1-Crusader's Strike, Charging Minotaur, Dousing the Flames
2-Foehammer, Tactical Strike
3-White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge

Stances:
1-Iron Guard's Glare
3-Thicket of Blades
[/spoiler]
This one starts mostly as a lockdown tank, gains some BFC abilities and a lot of utility, and ends being able to dish decent amounts of damage.

Well, that's it. I can't decide on which to take, and, of course, I'd love some input on them. I'm starting to think I'm trying to do too much, given the amount of players, but both incarnates and binders are prone to that.