Thought experiment: No Core Magic

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I thought it would be interesting to talk about how well the game functions without the more core magic systems.

What gets eliminated?  Well, to start out:
-Any classes which grant Vancian casting.  All of them.  Those classes which pick up Vancian spells later on, or have ACFs which don't allow for magic can be progressed as long as they don't pick up magic.
-Any classes which grant psionics progression.  All of them.
-Any items which either just duplicate a spell (like scrolls, wands, scepters, staves, spellclocks, magic traps, and necklaces of fireballs), or require spell slots to function (just to drop the latter off treasure tables)
-Any class which grants infusions (because they're treated as spells too.)
-Any monster which has, say, 13 or more SLAs or PLAs that just duplicate spells/powers, or would be banned as a character for the above reasons.
-Prestige classes that require spellcasting, but don't progress it, no longer require spellcasting.  

Obviously this is going to take the CR system back behind the woodshed and shoot it, but aside from that, there seem to be a few interesting outcomes, including that the only people who can make magic items are the creepy dudes consorting with dark powers that nobody's really certain of the sanity of.  That is to say, warlocks and binders

It seems like the feel of the game would be very different, and the system as a whole would be significantly more balanced.  Thoughts?

[Pimpforged]

It seems like the feel of the game would be very different, and the system as a whole would be significantly more balanced.  Thoughts?

different yes, more balanced, I doubt it. The poor fighter (already mocked by everyone else in D&D) now cannot even get any pity buffs from his cleric and wizard friends. Also he has to go to

creepy dudes consorting with dark powers that nobody's really certain of the sanity of

for his magic items. Combine this with the fact that the melee monsters are gonna be about the same, he will be getting raped harder than ever.

On the plus side, I think it would make incarnum classes more interesting to play, as magic items would be significantly rarer and harder to find.

I think the biggest problem would be big monsters who don't rely on spells/SLA steamrolling the party.

Imagine fighting the Tarrasque without real casters in the party 

[Garryl]

In the land of the mundane, the Truenamer is king. What, why are you looking at me like that?

They've got buffs (even if they're short and weak), they can make and repair magic items (or at least a small variety thereof), and most of the effects needed to make Truenaming actually usable (not good, just usable) don't require spells. They'd probably be quite competent in that environment (relatively speaking and with the proper optimization).

[Endarire]

What about The Dead Walk to mimic animate dead?

[Bester]

How do we heal?  Truenamer!

ToM classes and Warlocks would be the new casters.  ToB classes would replace the fighter.

I would let the healer and any other tier 4-5 casters be playable.

I think the game can be played with a party of truenamer with reasonable skill check fix(wizard sub), healer(cleric sub, yes healing sucks!), fighter, and rogue using CR scales if all the players optimize and the dm handles all the magic items.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Imagine fighting the Tarrasque without real casters in the party  

Yes, it might actually be an appropriate challenge for a warlock, dragonfire adept, dragon shaman and binder.  They'd need to use a luckblade for the wish to keep it down, but...


Healing boils down to using alchemy, crusaders, draconic auras, or various other tricky means (spell-less dragonmark spellthief).

[betrayor]

Imagine fighting the Tarrasque without real casters in the party  

Yes, it might actually be an appropriate challenge for a warlock, dragonfire adept, dragon shaman and binder.  They'd need to use a luckblade for the wish to keep it down, but...


Healing boils down to using alchemy, crusaders, draconic auras, or various other tricky means (spell-less dragonmark spellthief).

Well a warlock can create a scroll of a wish......

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well a warlock can create a scroll of a wish......

-Any items which either just duplicate a spell (like scrolls, wands, scepters, staves, spellclocks, magic traps, and necklaces of fireballs)

[Lycanthromancer]

Well a warlock can create a scroll of a wish......

-Any items which either just duplicate a spell (like scrolls, wands, scepters, staves, spellclocks, magic traps, and necklaces of fireballs)

So, warlocks suck even more now.

In any case, just give it the beatdown, knock it unconscious, then have the party barbarian CdG it with a scythe until a cage can be constructed to hold it. Then hack parts off when you're hungry, and use it to make special items and stuff.

[betrayor]

Well a warlock can create a scroll of a wish......

-Any items which either just duplicate a spell (like scrolls, wands, scepters, staves, spellclocks, magic traps, and necklaces of fireballs)

So luckblade wouldn't work either...
Well couldn't they just drown it?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Nah, luckblades do something in addition to duplicating a spell (the luck reroll), so they're fine.

[betrayor]

Nah, luckblades do something in addition to duplicating a spell (the luck reroll), so they're fine.

So if a warlock create a ring which compines a ring of three wishes and a ring of protection it would be ok?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If he can find said combined item.

You can't combine a ring of protection with an item that doesn't exist, though.

[Lycanthromancer]

If he can find said combined item.

You can't combine a ring of protection with an item that doesn't exist, though.

But you can add a luckblade with a ring of protection, aye?

And since all that would cross onto a ring would be the wishes...

[Sinfire Titan]

Imagine fighting the Tarrasque without real casters in the party 

That just involves getting it's negative HP value so low that it wakes up and falls back asleep.

Nah, luckblades do something in addition to duplicating a spell (the luck reroll), so they're fine.

You may not want to do this, as you can Wish for another Luckblade:

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

No price limit.

[betrayor]

You could create a staff  give it a weapon enchament ability and add the wish,Correct?

[lans]

Healing boils down to using alchemy, crusaders, draconic auras, or various other tricky means (spell-less dragonmark spellthief).

Azurin Dragon Shaman with Theraputic Mantle. Fast healing 3 when below half at first, taking expanded capacity and extra essentia at 3rd and 6th takes that to 7 when below half.

The real kicker is that the Touch of Vitality would get a boost of X7 if you keep it to 1 point at a time. So at 6th with an 18 charisma it could heal 336hp.

[Runestar]

Thank god for ToB then, I guess. Healing can be handled with a binder or shadow sun ninja (necropolitan if need be).

[Gods_Trick]

I love this board. Suggest a retiered setting and folk immediately start brainstorming on how to get wishes 

Seems a have the flavour of a Horror campaign, or played another way, an Iron Age Conan campaign.  Truespeaker subs for the archetypical sage, and creepy dudes are the BBEGs.

Why take out psionics though? They're in the SRD, true, but their rules are in Expanded. Still maybe its the lever of power you're playing with.

On the plus side, caster monsters are a little bit more manageable. Essentailly the game becomes less rocket tag and more HP grind.

[oslecamo]

Nah, luckblades do something in addition to duplicating a spell (the luck reroll), so they're fine.

You may not want to do this, as you can Wish for another Luckblade:

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

No price limit.

It has a price limit. Items that duplicate spells with exp cost must have said exp cost paid during creation. We have the exp cost for a luckblade. Thus any Wish using the luckblade is limited by the exp "stored" on it. Wich certainly isn't enough to pay a new luckblade.

So, warlocks suck even more now.

I would say they're pretty good now. With casters and artificers and psionis out of the window, warlocks are the only ones who can craft magic stuff for the party (at least the non-banned ones), and at-will fly suddenly is very good because nobody else can do it (at least untill much higher levels), barring some winged races. Not to mention at-will invisibility when nobody else gets see-invisibility. And pseudo-teleport in the form of shaddow-walk.

Gods_Trick:Psionics are easily the second strongest thing on the game after vancian casters. If you remove the vancian casting, they would be the ones ruling the jungle (cough metamorphosis).