Please PEACH this potential d20 modern non-lethal damage rule.

[brokenoakleys]

As many of you know, d20 modern does not have sub-dual damage for non-lethal hits.  If you hit someone with a non-lethal strike, you roll damage, but unless your damage exceeds your target's constitution score, nothing happens.  If you do exceed it, they either become dazed or unconcious depending on the result of their DC15 fort save.

Given the average CON is 11 and most character's damage will only exceed that score with a critical hit, a lot of gaming groups use the 3.5 DnD sub-dual damage rules.

Here is an alternative to that: each non-lethal hit temporarily reduces the target's CON score.  It works something like this (houserule is in italics).

1) Attacker takes non-lethal swing vs. Target, subecting herself to AO if applicable, per RAW.

2) If attacker MISSES, nothing happens per RAW.

3) If attacker HITS, they roll damage, Per RAW.

4)  If damage EXCEEDS target's CON score, target must make FORT save, per RAW.

5)  If target makes FORT save, they are dazed, per RAW, but also lose one temporary CON point.

6)  If target fails FORT save, they are unconcious per RAW for 1d4+1 rounds, and also lose two temporary CON points.

7)  If attacker's damage roll does NOT exceed target's CON, the target temporarily loses one CON point.

8)  Attacker's with the following abilities do one extra point of temporary CON damage:

Improved Brawling;
Improved Combat Martial Arts;
Streetfighting;
Have at least one level in Martial Artist; 

These abilities do NOT stack.  Thus a martial artist with the improved brawling, improved CMA and streetfighting feats would still only do one extra point of temporary CON damage.

9)  Scoring a critical hit does one extra point of temporary CON damage as well, and this does stack with para. 8 above.  Thus the maximum temporary CON damage that could be done by an attacker is 4:  One point for making the attack roll, one for having one of the combat abilities listed in para. 8, one for making a critical and one for knocking target unconcious.

10) Losing CON points this way does NOT impact HP.  However, it does effect target's CON score for purposes of determining if they have to make a FORT save when they are hit by a subsequent non-lethal attack.

EXAMPLE: Bernie Backtabbist, who has both Improved Brawling and Streetfighting,  tries to slug Ernie Enemy.  Ernie has a Con of 12.  Bernie rolls a 20 to hit and confirms his critical.  Bernie rolls 8 damage, which doesn't exceed Ernie's CON.  Ernie loses three temporary CON points:  one for the hit, one for a critical, and one due to Bernie's feats.  His CON is temporarily 8.  Next round, Bernie tries to slug Ernie again, hits again with a critical, and does 8 points non-lethal damage.  Ernie fails his fort save and drops to the floor for 1d4+1 rounds.  Ernie's temporariliy loses four CON points:  two for being knocked unconcious, one for a critical hit and one b/c Bernie has the requisite feats.

11)  CON points lost in this fashion are restored one per ten rounds of rest.  Rest means rest, not laying down prone and shooting a rifle at someone, or making skill checks, or driving, etc.  If a character's CON is reduced to less than 3, they become unconcious until they restore enough CON points to be at a 3 or higher.  A DC 15 or higher medical assist (?) results in restoring 2 CON points in 10 rounds, but a new roll must be made every 10 rounds.

Any PEACHY thoughts?

[Tema69]

PEACHY thoughts coming up.
That's one way to do it. In our group, we do as following.
Everything as RAW except:
If attacker's damage roll does NOT exceed target's CON, the attacker gets +1 to overcome the target's CON for the next attack. If the next attack misses, the bonus is lost. This stacks, so if one attack hits, then the second gets a +1 to overcome CON, but if the third misses, the bonus is lost. If there goes an entire round without hitting, the attacker loses one +1 bonus. If two rounds pass by without hitting the target, the attacker loses all the bonuses.
This, as well as an increase in weapon damage (all damage deals one extra die of damage in our group) makes nonlethal combat a more viable and usable option.
The fight should be over in a few rounds, instead of taking forever.

I guess what we use is simply a reverse version of yours.

[Orion]

My initial reaction is, that that's kind of complicated and a whole different way of reckoning damage (different than the basic HP concept), which probably why most people don't use d20M's knock-out rules, and instead go with D&D-style non-lethal damage.

So what I want to ask, then is this: what do you feel is better about this system than either d20M or D&D's? What I want to know, really, is what you dislike about the other two systems and how you're trying to improve them. In d20M, far more so than in D&D, the question of levels of realism comes up, for example. d20M's rules aren't realistic; they're cinematic. So if you want realism, you have to tailor the rules. That's one reason why someone might alter the combat rules in some fundamental way. Do you have a similar reason for wanting to change the rules? If so, what is it?

[nemafow]

Having never been in a fist fight, aren't fist fights usually quickly resolved, unless your a boxer and can take the hits?

Like its actually very possible to be knocked out from one or two blows?

Wouldn't this make fist fights drag on for alot longer than should be expected?

But then again, we -are- talking about heros here, so its perfectly feasible for them to take a sludging.

It's good but it just seems a bit too complicated, I personally do not see many chances for a punch on in my games so I could easily adapt this to the off situation when such thing happens, but it seems a bit difficult to use often. My thoughts.

Don't get me wrong though, it's certainly better than the d20m non-lethal system.

[brokenoakleys]

Thanks for all the input.

I do think it is a better system than what RAW give us.  Non-lethal RAW essentially allows people to slug each other forever and not suffer so much as a scratch, since only hits that exceed the target's CON have any chance of adversely impacting the target.  Even a brawler with 18 STR is going to do 10 damage at most (1d6 + 4).  Since the average CON is 11, only criticals have a chance of knocking someone out.

Sooner or later two people slugging it out are going to get exhausted, especially if they are suffering injuries (I know this from sparring:  if I'm tired after a light contact bout, I can only imagine what a real fight is like).  My system accounts for that by lowering a persons CON (and therefore their ability to withstand a knockout blow) with each hit they take.

But you all have made two good points:  1) my homebrew is too complicated and 2) the DnD subdual damage system is a workable and much simpler system.  My system does simulate the exhaustion one suffers from multiple blows, so it might be a good addition to campaigns that have a lot of boxing and bar room brawling.  Otherwise, I have to agree that the DnD subdual system is best. 

Here is a simplified system:

1) Anytime an attacker hits a target with non-lethal damage, the target suffers one point of temporary constitution damage in addition to any other effects (being dazed or knocked out).

2)   Losing CON points this way does effects target's CON score for purposes of determining if they have to make a FORT save when they are hit by a subsequent non-lethal attack.

3)  Temporary CON points are regained at the rate of 1 point per 10 rounds of rest.

[nemafow]

That works alot easier oakleys, its a minor modification rather than an entire new system. *thumbs up*

[Tema69]

Yeah, sometimes, you need to keep it simple. That's why we use +1 to overcome CON (or MDT, whatever is higher) per successive hit.

Having been in a few fist fights (and having lost the majority), I'd say that a normal fist fight (remember, I'm a kid, so actually, "a normal underage fist fight") can be anything from about 20 sec to a few minutes. I've only knocked a guy out once, and have only myself been "dazed" by a punch, but neither punch was the first in a fight, but rather after a few "rounds".

my 2 cents.