Author Topic: [3.5] Mystic Ranger, Shooting Star, Sword of The Arcane Order... A Mini-Guide  (Read 35333 times)

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McPoyo

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Doesn't the PHB state in the magic section that you can only prepare spells on your class list? I think that means you have a specific exception already present in the feat.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

zugschef

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Doesn't the PHB state in the magic section that you can only prepare spells on your class list? I think that means you have a specific exception already present in the feat.
this is completely irrelevant since the feat explicitly mentions that you can prepare wizard spells in your ranger spell slots, but does not mention that you get access to the wizard spell list.

a lot of feats override the standard rules, but if they do, it does not imply that they override anything more than exactly what is stated in the feat's text.

McPoyo

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Doesn't the PHB state in the magic section that you can only prepare spells on your class list? I think that means you have a specific exception already present in the feat.
this is completely irrelevant since the feat explicitly mentions that you can prepare wizard spells in your ranger spell slots, but does not mention that you get access to the wizard spell list.

a lot of feats override the standard rules, but if they do, it does not imply that they override anything more than exactly what is stated in the feat's text.
That was the answer I was hoping you would give, since it also states you cannot cast spells not on your list, as well as puts a hard cap on the required level of casting needed to cast each level. So the feat is useless unless you have sor/wiz casting anyhow, and furthermore must have enough levels that grant said casting to cast the spells in those slots, under your interpretation.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

zugschef

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That was the answer I was hoping you would give, since it also states you cannot cast spells not on your list, as well as puts a hard cap on the required level of casting needed to cast each level. So the feat is useless unless you have sor/wiz casting anyhow, and furthermore must have enough levels that grant said casting to cast the spells in those slots, [under your interpretation].
ehm no... i have pretty much explained how i "think" the feat works.
nowhere do the rules say that you add the wizard spell list to your class spell list, which is the standard rules text in all cases, that i know of, in which you can add spells to your spell list. if they did not intend to just give you the power to prepare wizard spells, but to give you access to the wizard spell list, they would have simply written something like "you add the wizard spell list to your class spell list" or "you gain access to the wizard spell list".

but be my guest and show me the quote which makes it clear that the sotao feat gives a ranger/paladin access to the wizard spell list.

[edit] btw, i cannot find anything in the srd which says that "you can only prepare spells on your class list" and "you cannot cast spells not on your list", all i can find is the rules saying "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below)."

***

Suggestions to the guide:
- under The Ugly, add limited proficiencies (loses martial melee weapons, shields)
- baleful polymorph is on mystic ranger's spell list, you can remove it from the suggested wizard spells I guess (unless his Int is higher than Wis, I guess)
ah thanks! =)

The_Mad_Linguist

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If you can prepare wizard spells, they are by definition on your list.
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zugschef

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If you can prepare wizard spells, they are by definition on your list.
i respectfully disagree.

i can only repeat myself: if it was intended that you get wizard spells to your class list, the rules would have been worded differently.

how would you word a feat which only gives you the power to prepare wizard spells with ranger spell slots and does not give you access to the wizard spell list?^^

McPoyo

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"X can prepare wiz/sor spells he already knows using his ranger spell slots instead."

Edit: OR!

"X can use any spell slots gained from ranger levels to cast their sor/wiz spells."
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:36:18 PM by McPoyo »
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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So isn't it almost always prudent to pick up a single level of wizard in this type of build?

Your average caster level with a build like Mystic Ranger 10/Wizard 1 should look something like:

7 (Shooting Star Improved Spellcasting: half level + 2) + 11 arcane class (Shooting Star Improved Spellcasting: Sword of the Arcane Order: Wizard class levels + Ranger class levels) = 18

Even at sixth level with a Mystic Ranger 5/Wizard 1 build you'll be getting a CL of 10.

zugschef

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So isn't it almost always prudent to pick up a single level of wizard in this type of build?

Your average caster level with a build like Mystic Ranger 10/Wizard 1 should look something like:

7 (Shooting Star Improved Spellcasting: half level + 2) + 11 arcane class (Shooting Star Improved Spellcasting: Sword of the Arcane Order: Wizard class levels + Ranger class levels) = 18

Even at sixth level with a Mystic Ranger 5/Wizard 1 build you'll be getting a CL of 10.
ok, what do the feat and substitution level say...
Quote
Benefit: [...] If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.
Quote
Improved Spellcasting (Ex): When casting ranger spells, a Shooting Star can treat her caster level as equal to one-half her ranger level +2. If she also has arcane spellcasting ability from another class, she can add her caster level from that class to this value to determine her caster level.
now let's take a look at this...
the feat explicitly says that your wizard caster level is exactly "the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels". in the case of a ranger10/wizard1 this is 11. (note, that without a level in wizard, when casting wizard spells your caster level is one-half your ranger level.)
the substitution level says that, "when casting ranger spells", your caster level is "equal to one-half her ranger level +2" plus the caster level of any arcane class you might have, in this case 11, thus your ranger caster level is indeed 10/2+2+11=18.

lol, thanks for showing me this! i doubt that the majority of DMs would allow that, though.

btw, if you take into account that a mystic ranger has the spellcasting ability from level one, and rule that your caster level is equal to the mystic ranger class level (with caster level=ranger/2 the mystic ranger could not cast spells at 1st level) the ranger caster level increases by another 3 to 21.

***

on the access to the wizard spell list thing... i'd like to give an example:
   you have the license to keep sheep and a stable which is licensed to keep sheep in. then, you acquire a license for said stable which expands its license from only sheep to sheep and goats. now you have a license to keep sheep and a stable which is licensed to keep sheep and goats in.
   this, however, does not automatically mean that you are allowed to keep goats, too. it only means that you could also keep goats in the stable if you had the license to keep goats.
   (if this is too rural for you, then you can change the stable to a research lab, the sheep to white rats and the goats to chimps.)

cru

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SotAO - my take
can prepare sor/wiz spells in ranger slots (or paladin)
* can also cast the prepared spells

sor/wiz spells do not become spells known, they are not on your spell list
* i.e., you cannot use wands or scrolls without UMD
(remotely similar to e.g. combat medic who can cast heal but does not have to have it in spell list)

however, when you prepare a spell from a borrowed spell book, you can write it down into your own spell book
* once in your spell book, you no longer need to bother with spellcraft checks
* even spells in your spell book are still not on your spell list (spells known)
* i.e., still no wands/scrolls

gorfnad

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Here are two threads that may provide some more Mystic Ranger info.
Mystic Ranger: The Ultimate Gish?
Mystic Ranger

Also in E6 a Mystic Ranger with the Wildshape (UA), Trapfinding (DS), and Arcane Hunter (CM) ACFs, along with the feats Sword of the Arcane Order and Wild Cohort is pretty much a one PC party. You could easily pick up the feats Nemesis (BoED), Education (PGtF), Knowledge Devotion (CC), and Track (if you really need it for some reason) to really trick it out.

Another build that I think would be interesting would be Cloistered Cleric 1/ Mystic Ranger 4/ Prestige Paladin 2/ Mystic Ranger X/ with the feat Holy Mount (Dragon #325).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 08:45:13 AM by gorfnad »

zugschef

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RAW, Sword of the Arcane Order would work. Good luck getting a DM to allow that, but sure. It's a feat, so so long as you qualify (Prestige Ranger 4), you can get it.
actually it wouldn't work since the prestige ranger does not grant you spellcasting, it only advances an already existing spellcasting ability: since your spellcasting ability is derived from your levels in druid, you never get ranger spell slots, and thus can never use them to prepare wizard spells.

zugschef

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added some acfs, variants and substitution levels, and i'm finally sure that a mystic ranger's caster level is equal to his class level:

Quote
How is a mystic ranger's caster level determined? The core rules are not applicable as written.
Quote
PHB: Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.
Since the mystic ranger casts spells from level 1 on, there are two possibilities: either caster level = ranger level or caster level = ranger level/2, though in the latter case you would again have no caster level at level 1 and couldn't cast any spells at that level.

But all the core classes, including the bard, do not mention the caster level in their rules text, thus it is safe to assume that your caster level is equal to your mystic ranger class level.

DavidWL

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Here are a couple of ranger builds - not Mystic Rangers, but still quite nice (One by me, one by Surreal):

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=365.msg7190#msg7190
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=365.msg232446#msg232446

Urban Companion is nice ACF, if you have a familiar to give up.
Feats of note: Wise to your ways, Nemesis, Darkstalker, Dragon Wildshape, Improved Familiar, Minor Shapechange, Practiced Spellcaster, Extra Favored Enemy, Apprentice (Spellcaster)

Best,
David
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 03:24:16 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

zugschef

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Here are a couple of ranger builds - not Mystic Rangers, but still quite nice (One by me, one by Surreal):

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=365.msg7190#msg7190
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=365.msg232446#msg232446

Urban Companion is nice ACF, if you have a familiar to give up.
Feats of note: Wise to your ways, Nemesis, Darkstalker, Dragon Wildshape, Improved Familiar, Minor Shapechange, Practiced Spellcaster, Extra Favored Enemy, Apprentice (Spellcaster)
thank you.

but to be honest, the point is actually to guide people through the combination of mystic ranger, sotao and shooting star. i don't want this to become another ranger guide.

KellKheraptis

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RAW, Sword of the Arcane Order would work. Good luck getting a DM to allow that, but sure. It's a feat, so so long as you qualify (Prestige Ranger 4), you can get it.
actually it wouldn't work since the prestige ranger does not grant you spellcasting, it only advances an already existing spellcasting ability: since your spellcasting ability is derived from your levels in druid, you never get ranger spell slots, and thus can never use them to prepare wizard spells.

Wrong, and here's why.  PrC Ranger/Pally/Bard all assumes the standard Ranger/Pally/Bard doesn't exist, thus your (X class here) spell slots are also your PrC R/P/B slots, as that's the absolute only way to ever access those spell lists short of SCM trickery (well or Sublime Chord/Silver Pyromancer, but that's a different discussion).
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Jelvoden

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The Mystic Ranger doesn't get an animal companion, and the Shooting Star level 4 substitution level ability states "This benefit replaces the animal companion class feature gained by a standard ranger at 4th level." Wouldn't this prohibit you from combining the two, or is this just flavor text and the requirements listed at the start of the chapter are the only relevant bits?
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