"You must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original."

[BrokeAndDrive]

This has always bugged me. Why must all these reroll abilities force you to take the rerolled result, even if it's worse? Was it something from 1st or 2nd edition that was overpowered, but toned down for 3e? Does it make the average d20 roll of 10.5 equal to 15? If so, how's that any worse than a 1/day +5 bonus to a d20 roll?

Nevermind my general attitude that "once a day" = "never ever used, because I never know if I'm gonna waste it, or if I need it later, so it just sits there, and sits there, even at the final boss, because what if he Now Behold My TRUE Form!'s my ass, then I feel bad because I didn't use it yesterday, making it a completely wasted and needlessly-frustrating ECL sink that I could've traded in for a weaker at-will power because I'll actually use that shit".

Anyway, what gives? Is a Get-Out-Of-RNG's-Jail-Free card really that powerful in the hands of players? I mean, any more powerful than grease and glitterdust. Hell, even if the ability says "treat that roll as if you rolled a natural 20," that still can't be better than winning the encounter with a standard action! Here I go again with the "fighters can't have nice things" complaining.

[Bloody Initiate]

I hate x/day. Always have.

And the line that is the subject of this thread, hate it too. It's an unnecessary nerf in almost every place which it appears.

[Runestar]

I have always wondered about that too. This means I would never use a reroll ability unless I rolled a natural one, or the roll was low enough that I knew I would fail the check anyways.

Personally, I don't see what's so powerful about say, rolling a 15 on my craft check, and opting to reroll in the hopes of getting a better result.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

IIRC, there are rerolls where you don't have to take the new result.

My statistical gut instinct says that not having to take the reroll is worth about the same as a +5 bonus or so.

[Empirate]

I really can't understand what you're getting so riled up about. It's not as if rerolling is totally worthless just because you might end up worse. In fact, in most cases you'll use your reroll to avoid certain disaster. OK, it would be ever-so-slightly cool if you could also make the best of a Craft roll with this - but in the end, that you can normally take 20 on, if it's really important, or get lots of Commoner followers to Aid Another, or whatever. Rerolls are for those situations in which you just wish you rolled less abysmal.

Having the option to reroll is good. Simple as that. Your weak-ass Wizard rolled a 3 on his save against Finger of Death? Reroll, can't get much worse than this. Your idiot Bard party member got a 4 on his Move Silently? Good thing he can reroll, isn't it? BBEG absolutely must die this round, or his next spell-like will kill most of your group: you got a threat! Oh, no, natural 1 on the confirmation roll... wait! I got my reroll right here!

Also, the 1/day thing. From mid levels onward, your Cleric or Wizard will get their best spell only 1/day. Often, you'll get a whole bunch of your spells only 1/day (cause you need variety when you prepare for the day). A 1st-3rd level Barbarian can use his Rage only 1/day, a 1st level Bard his music, a 5th level Druid his Wildshape. A healing potion is not even 1/day, it's 1/ever! As are many consumable items that you'll still have to rely on in many situations.

As far as the tactical aspect of D&D goes, it's a game mostly about resource management. You manage your hitpoints, class features, consumables, actions. If you refrain from using something that will make your life easier now, said life might end. If you don't use a 1/day power in a normal adventuring day, that day was either less challenging (from the DM's side) than it should have been, or more challenging (from your side) than it should have been.

What I like about 1/day powers and consumable items is the fact that they force you to make a decision. Decisions are interesting. Enjoy your decision-making!

[zugschef]

What I like about 1/day powers and consumable items is the fact that they force you to make a decision. Decisions are interesting. Enjoy your decision-making!

that's why i don't particularly like tob's maneuver recovery mechanics... (and the factotum)

[RobbyPants]

Regarding re-rolling: it doesn't bother me much, really.  As Empirate said, you don't use this ability to re-roll a die that has some scaling form of success (like a Craft check), or something that could get worse (like a Disable Device check that you failed, but not so bad as to spring the trap).  You use it when you've already done as bad as you can.  This is particularly effective for binary pass-fail rolls (like most important rolls, like saves and attacks).  If you've already failed a pass-fail roll, you can't fail it worse, so you have nothing to lose.

Stop using it on non-pass-fail rolls, and it will work just fine.


As for x/day: I have mixed feelings.  Any resource mechanic (per day, per encounter, at will, winds of fate, bottom-up, top-down, and any other) has it's pros and cons, really.  If you changed it from x/day to something else, there will just be something else to complain about.

[AtomicKitKat]

From a fluff standpoint, being forced to accept the reroll result makes perfect sense. Especially since most of these types are "Luck" type things(and as we all know, things can always get worse, and things can always get better).

[Ikeren]

I often use my x/day abilities as they're needed and don't worry about it too much. Especially if not using them leads to me being knocked unconscious.

[BrokeAndDrive]

If you changed it from x/day to something else, there will just be something else to complain about.

And if you make it at-will, then people will complain that it's overpowered, or that it sucks because if it WAS any better, it'd be too good for at-will!

[RobbyPants]

If you changed it from x/day to something else, there will just be something else to complain about.

And if you make it at-will, then people will complain that it's overpowered, or that it sucks because if it WAS any better, it'd be too good for at-will!

There's that, but also, if every thing's at will, you end up with people spamming their best ability over and over.  Sure, what their best ability is might change from encounter to encounter, but in any one given fight, one will often look better than the rest.

Every resource mechanic has it's pros and cons.  You basically have to figure out what you want from your game, and what type of behavior you want to mechanically incentivize.

[Lifat]

On lets say a fireball it isn't just pass/fail. It is pass/fail/fail horribly.
Pass: I made the DC
Fail: I didn't make the DC but I didn't roll a 1
Fail horribly: I rolled a 1, so now my gear takes damage aswell.

I for one would never use rerolls on varying degrees of succes. But that one line does mean that it's risky to use it on something like a fireball. I do find that a bit silly.

[Lycanthromancer]

This is why I like the Second Chance power. 1/round reroll on nearly anything I might need? Hell yeah.

And Fate of One is an immediate action for the same thing in a pinch. And both are better because any psion of the level needed to manifest them can do so numerous times per day when necessary, but can choose to utilize other powers instead.

And then there's power stones and dorjes and tattoos and such.

[Littha]

On lets say a fireball it isn't just pass/fail. It is pass/fail/fail horribly.
Pass: I made the DC
Fail: I didn't make the DC but I didn't roll a 1
Fail horribly: I rolled a 1, so now my gear takes damage aswell.

I for one would never use rerolls on varying degrees of succes. But that one line does mean that it's risky to use it on something like a fireball. I do find that a bit silly.

Fireball is pass/fail/fail horribly

[Lycanthromancer]

On lets say a fireball it isn't just pass/fail. It is pass/fail/fail horribly.
Pass: I made the DC
Fail: I didn't make the DC but I didn't roll a 1
Fail horribly: I rolled a 1, so now my gear takes damage aswell.

I for one would never use rerolls on varying degrees of succes. But that one line does mean that it's risky to use it on something like a fireball. I do find that a bit silly.

Fireball is pass/fail/fail horribly

It's also 'I don't care because I've got fifty-bazillion ways to become immune'.

[Lifat]

On lets say a fireball it isn't just pass/fail. It is pass/fail/fail horribly.
Pass: I made the DC
Fail: I didn't make the DC but I didn't roll a 1
Fail horribly: I rolled a 1, so now my gear takes damage aswell.

I for one would never use rerolls on varying degrees of succes. But that one line does mean that it's risky to use it on something like a fireball. I do find that a bit silly.

Fireball is pass/fail/fail horribly

It's also 'I don't care because I've got fifty-bazillion ways to become immune'.

I know that fireball is pass/fail/fail horribly. Look at what I wrote in context and you'd realize that. I also know that fireball is relatively easy to get protected against.
Fireball was just a placeholder. You can insert any spell with varying degrees of failure depending on it having a greater effect on a nat 1. I completely concur with you Lycanthromancer but it is slightly off topic. The topic in this thread is why the reroll abilites WITH that line has been nerfed like that considering their not so powerful nature in the first place.

[RobbyPants]

It's a risk-reward analysis.  In terms of Fireball your P/F/FH split is basically Take half damage/Take full damage/Take full damage and get damaged gear.  So, is an X% chance of taking half damage worth a 5% chance of frying your gear?  Probably not unless it involves you dying.  Even then, depending on your level, getting raised might be better than losing gear.

You could have other situations where the split is totally worth it.  You have to look at each on individually.

[Lifat]

Yeah. But the discussion here is why the "reroll" effect was actually nerfed with that line. Now we see that it IS worse than if the line hadn't been there.
I for one will be houseruling that line away in any future game because imo the 1 reroll/day isn't powerful enough to warrant the nerf.

[veekie]

The difference is intent:
Reroll & take new roll - Avert misfortune, you use it if you already failed.
Negate previous roll & take static number(usually 11) - Ensure a particular outcome.
Roll twice and take better - Most often used offensively, to push for a better outcome like critting.

So for stuff like this, I say it depends on who's getting the reroll and how central is said reroll to the class itself? As a domain power, mitigating disaster would be totally appropriate.

[Lifat]

Even if I was given a power that let me roll twice and take best result I wouldn't be using it offensively unless it was something I had often.
If it is 1-3 times/day I would be saving the rerolls to avoid save or suck/die/take loads of damage.
If I had it more often than 3 times per day I would probably start to use some of the rerolls for offensive use. And so what? Still isn't gamebreakingly good. (although having rerolls becomes increasingly good with amount of times it is available per day)