Author Topic: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?  (Read 18062 times)

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Dan2

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2008, 03:52:47 PM »
Also, here's something for you to consider. Hypothetical scenario: the power's not called Wall of Fire, it's called Wall of Light (or Darkness, or whatever). It is identical in every way except for the title, fluff text and damage type. Is it still "undisputable" that it fits into the same description as hindering terrain because it's the most approximate thing?

Undisputable?  No, but I figure you're using hyperbole.  (Or quoting someone)

Is it still hindering terrain?  Yes, it may even occur naturally in places like the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos.

But that is only what I think of it.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2008, 05:59:28 PM »
Quote
Undisputable?  No, but I figure you're using hyperbole.  (Or quoting someone)

Is it still hindering terrain?  Yes, it may even occur naturally in places like the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos.

But that is only what I think of it.

Hence the quotes.  ;)

I think it's not hindering terrain, personally, because it's what makes the most sense to me. The fact that neither the descriptions for area attacks or conjurations mention the possibility of altering terrain outside of the power descriptions doesn't really help. There's no mention of it on errata, either.

Also, taken literally, the description for conjuration STOPS ANYONE BUT YOUR ALLIES FROM CROSSING IT ALTOGETHER. Quote:
Quote
Powers that have the conjuration keyword create
objects
or creatures.
A conjuration uses your ability scores and defenses
to determine the outcome of attacks it makes and
attacks against it (if such attacks are possible).
Environmental phenomena and other forces have
no effect on a conjuration unless a power description
says otherwise. For example, a conjuration that produces
an icy hand functions in a fiery, volcanic cavern
without penalty.

Bolding mine. Naturally, since WoF mentions both moving through and it mentions any creature (regardless of distinction) is attacked, we can assume this isn't the case with it, but there you have it. Classifying WoF as hindering, obscured terrain is an extrapolation at this point: it's not specifically mentioned as such, and thus probably should be kept that way - in other words, a DM's call.

Note: just because a wall of fire is mentioned as an example of hindering terrain, that doesn't mean the POWER Wall of Fire is hindering terrain; as I said before, if the wall were made out of anything but fire, the comparison would be approximate but not ideal.  :smirk
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Dan2

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2008, 06:09:14 PM »
Also, taken literally, the description for conjuration STOPS ANYONE BUT YOUR ALLIES FROM CROSSING IT ALTOGETHER. Quote:
Quote
Powers that have the conjuration keyword create
objects
or creatures.
A conjuration uses your ability scores and defenses
to determine the outcome of attacks it makes and
attacks against it (if such attacks are possible).
Environmental phenomena and other forces have
no effect on a conjuration unless a power description
says otherwise. For example, a conjuration that produces
an icy hand functions in a fiery, volcanic cavern
without penalty.

The errata fixed that problem.

Quote

This makes the above:
Quote
Powers that have the conjuration keyword create
objects
or creatures of magical energy.
Unless a power description says otherwise,
a conjuration cannot be attacked or physically affected,
and a conjuration does not occupy any squares.
A conjuration uses your ability scores and defenses
to determine the outcome of attacks it makes and
attacks against it (if such attacks are possible).
Environmental phenomena and other forces have
no effect on a conjuration unless a power description
says otherwise. For example, a conjuration that produces
an icy hand functions in a fiery, volcanic cavern
without penalty.

As you can see, most of your bold goes away.

The errata reinforces that the rules work together.  Also, the designers tell us (in the DMG) that we're supposed to apply the closest approximation.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2008, 06:15:04 PM »
Quote
The errata fixed that problem.

Always a good thing to be updated.

Quote
The errata reinforces that the rules work together.  Also, the designers tell us (in the DMG) that we're supposed to apply the closest approximation.

Aye, but it doesn't really say you have to LOOK for an approximation if there's no immediate need for it. One might argue game balance makes such a need, but then we get into the age-old RAW v. RAI debate, and as we have no clue what the designers really intended, we don't even know what RAI is.

Frankly, I think they could have foreseen this combination VERY easily (specially since it's low-level enough). If they wanted to make WoF into a hindering terrain effect, they would have said so in the power description. Why look further ahead? Why make it more complicated than it needs to be?

EDIT: Tell you what. Why don't we just email CustServ and let them settle this one? I probably won't be using their ruling but it's as approximate to an official compromise as we're gonna get.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 06:16:41 PM by Kuroimaken »
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For proof, look here:

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atrocity05

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2008, 06:19:34 PM »
"If you want to use something not covered in this chapter, refer to the examples here as a guideline"

This, to me, speaks about using this when the terrain isn't covered elsewhere.  Since wall of fire isn't, it should fall under that rule and should therefore default to a terrain comparison.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 06:50:14 PM by atrocity05 »

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2008, 01:38:08 AM »
Hey, laugh all you want, kid. It's good therapy. You seem like you could use some. (I'm already doing mine. It's working. Before, I'd go down to your level, really.)

Frankly, I thought we were starting to reach a compromise somewhere on other threads, but then you go and fetch the flamethrower. The one thread in which I see you NOT running your mouth is, ironically, a thread I started, but the funny thing is that it's also the ONLY thread to which you contributed where no one happened to dispute your point.

I don't claim to be an expert in D&D. In fact, if anything, I'm here to LEARN. I dispute only what I disagree with for whatever reason, and I'll be the first guy to admit I'm wrong if I overlook errata or anything of that kind (refer to my reply to Dan2 above for an example).

Let me reiterate: I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE A D&D EXPERT OR AUTHORITY.

That said, you seem like you could be an excellent Troll: The Provoking player. But I'd best not bet, lest I lose. I'd have to pull you into this once I'm absolutely certain.

Oh, and the reply is C), by the way. Wall of Fire is not terrain, it's a power. Really, why would you ask?

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to email CustServ like I suggested a post or so ago. Chances are I won't use the ruling they provide me with, because I place no faith at all in the ability of CustServ to provide an useful answer, or because my DM won't care (in the end, it boils down to that: it doesn't matter whether either of us "win" this debate, I'm only affected by what decisions are made for use on the table). But hey, I will share.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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atrocity05

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2008, 03:03:54 AM »
Heh, I understand that whole custserv bit... If I remember correctly, there's a thread around here about playing the custserv to get a ruling you want.  Anyways, I do kind of want you to respond a little my direction here :P

Alright, so you say that it wouldn't count as terrain.  My question then, is according to you, what counts as terrain?  As far as I know, the standard definition of terrain is something that you step over/on/through blah blah blah.  I think it fits that definition pretty well.  Now, onto part two.

The rule as written, states that you are supposed to approximate terrain based on cases already laid out.  In this case, since there is fire in the square, you would probably have to liken it to.... wait for it, fire.  That would make it hindering terrain.

I personally don't see anything wrong with that and as far as I can tell it follows the rules as written.  Anyone else want to weigh in on that though?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2008, 02:04:57 PM »
Quote
Heh, I understand that whole custserv bit... If I remember correctly, there's a thread around here about playing the custserv to get a ruling you want.  Anyways, I do kind of want you to respond a little my direction here

Alright, so you say that it wouldn't count as terrain.  My question then, is according to you, what counts as terrain?  As far as I know, the standard definition of terrain is something that you step over/on/through blah blah blah.  I think it fits that definition pretty well.  Now, onto part two.

The rule as written, states that you are supposed to approximate terrain based on cases already laid out.  In this case, since there is fire in the square, you would probably have to liken it to.... wait for it, fire.  That would make it hindering terrain.

I personally don't see anything wrong with that and as far as I can tell it follows the rules as written.  Anyone else want to weigh in on that though?

Well, here's the thing. As far as I can tell, there is no other power in the book that does something on the same level as Wall of Fire. Similar, yes, but not on the same level. Also, the pattern I see on the book is that when a power effectively alters terrain, it says so in the power (i.e. "this power creates difficult terrain", or "the area created by this power is treated as difficult terrain"). And there's no power in the whole book that creates hindering terrain (or at least that explicitly claims to do so). Also, consider this: the damage for just standing near the wall is pathetic for a daily. Going through the wall itself, however, deals more respectable damage. But there are only two ways to do that: force your enemy in or lure him in. Why would they further restrict the use of this power by making it hindering terrain (considering you need to have a way of pushing your foe in to make it work full power already)? That's what I don't get.

Now, to get back at hanatari kozoo.

Listen, I'm handing the spanking paddle on this one. You obviously don't want to hear, but you're being incredibly disruptive at the same time.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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atrocity05

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2008, 02:53:20 PM »
So, let me get this straight.  Not only are you not arguing what's written, you're saying that it isn't allowed to be different than the other powers?  That point of the wall may be just to keep people away from you, if that the case, does it really matter if the enter it or not?  I don't see how it's a massive nerf at that point.  In 3.5 there were walls that weren't damaging, but people didn't complain about them...

Anyways, I think that RAW more supports my position is it isn't relying on the web of assumption that your position seems to take and is supported by everything I can find in the book.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2008, 04:31:50 PM »
Quote
So, let me get this straight.  Not only are you not arguing what's written, you're saying that it isn't allowed to be different than the other powers?  That point of the wall may be just to keep people away from you, if that the case, does it really matter if the enter it or not?  I don't see how it's a massive nerf at that point.  In 3.5 there were walls that weren't damaging, but people didn't complain about them...

Anyways, I think that RAW more supports my position is it isn't relying on the web of assumption that your position seems to take and is supported by everything I can find in the book.

If the point of the wall is just to keep people from coming to you, why bother with damage at all? Block them with something else, like, say, Wall of Ice instead.

I think the whole point of Wall of Fire dealing damage is for you to hurl people through it, honestly. I don't really understand what you mean by "it isn't allowed to be different from the other powers", however. As I mentioned before, few powers in the book actually create terrain of any sort, and they're dully noted. WoF doesn't. The fact that fire is mentioned as an example of hindering terrain doesn't mean that the power should be considered as such (interesting note: there isn't a SINGLE example of a power creating terrain in that entire section of the DMG), otherwise you might as well make every area power with the fire descriptor hindering terrain.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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azbo

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2008, 05:30:46 PM »
Well, here's the thing. As far as I can tell, there is no other power in the book that does something on the same level as Wall of Fire. Similar, yes, but not on the same level. Also, the pattern I see on the book is that when a power effectively alters terrain, it says so in the power (i.e. "this power creates difficult terrain", or "the area created by this power is treated as difficult terrain"). And there's no power in the whole book that creates hindering terrain (or at least that explicitly claims to do so). Also, consider this: the damage for just standing near the wall is pathetic for a daily. Going through the wall itself, however, deals more respectable damage. But there are only two ways to do that: force your enemy in or lure him in. Why would they further restrict the use of this power by making it hindering terrain (considering you need to have a way of pushing your foe in to make it work full power already)? That's what I don't get.

Now, to get back at hanatari kozoo.

Listen, I'm handing the spanking paddle on this one. You obviously don't want to hear, but you're being incredibly disruptive at the same time.
LOL, so you are arguing because you want to use the combo not because it makes sense.  You can place the wall on top of the creatures to begin with.  It can hit a massive amount of creatures.  You can thunderwave them into it as well.  You can make it 5x2 and push them into two squares of the wall.  It's very large damage when you consider the number of creatures it might hit and the fact that it persists.  The reasons that it doesn't say "creates terrain" is because terrain already covers this AND because the hindering part only lasts as long as you keep the wall active.  If it said "creates hindering" on the power some rules lawyer would likely argue it was still hindering after the fire was gone.

The rules clearly state apply the closest thing.  How can anyone possibly argue that open ground is closer to WoF than a wall of fire... oh yeah, I forgot you don't care about getting it right you just care about getting a combo out of it.

Talk about not wanting to hear... I assume that means you reported my post. Pretty ironic considering how much you flame and your -26 fu lol

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2008, 05:49:50 PM »
Quote
LOL, so you are arguing because you want to use the combo not because it makes sense.  You can place the wall on top of the creatures to begin with.  It can hit a massive amount of creatures.  You can thunderwave them into it as well.  You can make it 5x2 and push them into two squares of the wall.  It's very large damage when you consider the number of creatures it might hit and the fact that it persists.  The reasons that it doesn't say "creates terrain" is because terrain already covers this AND because the hindering part only lasts as long as you keep the wall active.  If it said "creates hindering" on the power some rules lawyer would likely argue it was still hindering after the fire was gone.

The rules clearly state apply the closest thing.  How can anyone possibly argue that open ground is closer to WoF than a wall of fire... oh yeah, I forgot you don't care about getting it right you just care about getting a combo out of it.

Talk about not wanting to hear... I assume that means you reported my post. Pretty ironic considering how much you flame and your -26 fu lol

Damn straight I'm not wanting to listen to you, kozoo. My ears are not toilets. If you really want to keep on rambling, go ahead, but I'll proceed to ignore you from this point onward for as long as you continue to set everything on fire.

You'd think a guy with a 10-year-old daughter wouldn't go LOL all the time.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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azbo

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2008, 11:16:57 PM »
Damn straight I'm not wanting to listen to you, kozoo. My ears are not toilets. If you really want to keep on rambling, go ahead, but I'll proceed to ignore you from this point onward for as long as you continue to set everything on fire.

You'd think a guy with a 10-year-old daughter wouldn't go LOL all the time.
It's your mouth that's the toilet, a constant stream of verbal diarrhea spews forth.  You would think a guy who pontificates endlessly about the game would have some ability to be objective.

There's not anything in your post that contributes to the thread it's simply another flame.  You begin the flames, you add posts that have nothing to do with the topic and then you try to project blame onto others.
otherwise you might as well make every area power with the fire descriptor hindering terrain.
how many area powers with fire persist?  I'm pretty sure virtually everyone on this thread (except you) would agree that a power that causes damage i.e. severely punishes movement is closest to hindering terrain and thus in keeping with the RAW and the RAI.  The RAW states "choose the closest using logical interpretation".  Is there any terrain that causes damage that doesn't allow a save under the rules of forced movement?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2008, 02:35:41 AM »
I got a reply from CustServ on the matter. First, the original question.

Quote

And this is what they answered.

Quote
Wall of Fire is precipitous terrain, which would allow a creature a saving throw to avoid being forced into it's space. As for why this is not specifically mentioned in the power, I cannot say. I can clarify only existing rules, and cannot attempt to deconstruct a rule or mechanic, or explain why the writers chose to write something a certain way.

Precipitous Terrain is mentioned on page 44.
Quote

Putting things in other words: "Hi, here's an answer we pulled out of our asses. The answer is correct but we're not going to elaborate on the why." Also note how precipitous terrain makes no mentions of a saving throw whatsoever.

So, yeah. The official word is that WoF allows a save for forced movement. I don't agree with it and my DM doesn't, either, but hey, who are we to dispute the might of CustServ?  :rolleyes
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
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Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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DemonLord57

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2008, 03:07:08 AM »
I got a reply from CustServ on the matter. First, the original question.

Quote

And this is what they answered.

Quote
Wall of Fire is precipitous terrain, which would allow a creature a saving throw to avoid being forced into it's space. As for why this is not specifically mentioned in the power, I cannot say. I can clarify only existing rules, and cannot attempt to deconstruct a rule or mechanic, or explain why the writers chose to write something a certain way.

Precipitous Terrain is mentioned on page 44.
Quote

Putting things in other words: "Hi, here's an answer we pulled out of our asses. The answer is correct but we're not going to elaborate on the why." Also note how precipitous terrain makes no mentions of a saving throw whatsoever.

So, yeah. The official word is that WoF allows a save for forced movement. I don't agree with it and my DM doesn't, either, but hey, who are we to dispute the might of CustServ?  :rolleyes
Wow, you even directly gave them an easy way out of it by mentioning hindering terrain. That's amusing. And this is even more amusing:
Quote
As for why this is not specifically mentioned in the power, I cannot say. I can clarify only existing rules, and cannot attempt to deconstruct a rule or mechanic, or explain why the writers chose to write something a certain way.
:bs While I would respect them a lot more if they actually did this... they don't. It's especially funny in this context, as he just made a stupid ruling. Precipitous terrain has to do with terrain near cliffs. Precipitous means basically 'very steep', not 'dangerous'... unless they want to say that they meant it was 'abrupt' or 'hasty' terrain. Yeah, that's what it means.  :rolleyes

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2008, 05:04:07 AM »
Quote
While I would respect them a lot more if they actually did this... they don't. It's especially funny in this context, as he just made a stupid ruling. Precipitous terrain has to do with terrain near cliffs. Precipitous means basically 'very steep', not 'dangerous'... unless they want to say that they meant it was 'abrupt' or 'hasty' terrain. Yeah, that's what it means.

And the most ironic point here is that it's a verbatim quote. I swear, dude, I'm not making this up. This is exactly what his reply was.  :lol

I'd have to ask the guy how on earth he can come up with that crap with a straight face.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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azbo

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2008, 06:03:41 AM »
actually what's most ironic is you worded the question in the least objective manner possible and still won't accept the response.

If you read page 44 above the part you're quoting there's even more damning evidence you're simply trying to modify the rules to suit your own ends.  Hopefully your DM uses this power on you as well as allows you to use it then you can decide if it's a good rule. I have a feeling you're only happy in a campaign where you can browbeat the DM into playing by your rules.  Better not let him see this forum.

DMG pg 44:  Targets of forced movement in hindering terrain (pits, precipices, fire) can avoid plunging into a pit or
over the edge of a cliff or being pushed into a raging fire.

The objective wording for a question like this doesn't point out the elements you're trying to base your side of a case on without pointing out the other side.

"given that it causes damage, does wall of fire qualify as hindering terrain and therefore grant a save vs forced movement?" 

Would be far more objective.  Incidentally I'm unsure what your point for highlighting TRIPLE, apparently you wanted them possibly to call it "difficult" terrain but difficult is +1 square, not double and not triple.  Difficult also does no damage. 

I noticed again that you didn't answer the question is there any terrain that causes damage and doesn't allow a save with regard to forced movement?


atrocity05

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2008, 11:32:53 AM »
Heh, I'm just going to say this and I'm done and you can't take it how you please.  But in combat, it would go something like this.

1) Wall of Fire is cast
2) A creature is pushed in, but look, there's a fire there
3) Terrain check says it's similar to fire, mostly because it is
4) According to that, there's a save

It works kind of like CSS in this regard.  There's a very general - very specific type of system set up.  The general rules will hold until there exists a more specific rule that breaks it.  Kind of like the movement thing.  That part would be different because there's a very specific rule about it.  But that pretty much ends my argument.  If you have something to point out or something, feel free to pm me.  I just don't see where your logic is coming from...

Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2008, 02:52:48 PM »
Azbo:

I quoted the text for precipitous terrain directly from page 44. I didn't quote the part above page 44 because it is a summarized form of the text from page 61 - note, precipitous terrain doesn't even show up on that little column of text. The CustServ response classifies it as precipitous terrain.

Quote
actually what's most ironic is you worded the question in the least objective manner possible and still won't accept the response.

Do feel free to word the question as objectively as you can and send it to CustServ, if you feel I tried to make them give me the response I wanted. That doesn't mean I have to take it as truth. My DM agrees with me, and as far as I'm concerned, his is the response I care about - not yours nor anyone else's - because that's what affects my game, not someone else's words. It's that simple.
Quote
I have a feeling you're only happy in a campaign where you can browbeat the DM into playing by your rules.  Better not let him see this forum.

Wow, I must be really unhappy then. Convincing my DM he's wrong without rules sources/errata/CustServ responses is about as hard as trying to stop a river from flowing with a shoe.

Like I said before: this is what CustServ says. I find it idiotic, personally, but I'm not really trying to convince everyone else to play by my logic here. You are, apparently, but I couldn't care less.
Quote
If you have something to point out or something, feel free to pm me.  I just don't see where your logic is coming from...

I likely will, if anything because it appears I have to give some space to tenkou no ama over there.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Darius Stronghand

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  • Posts: 19
  • Professor Oak can effin' Die
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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2008, 04:05:02 PM »
Convincing my DM he's wrong without rules sources/errata/CustServ responses is about as hard as trying to stop a river from flowing with a shoe.

To be fair, there was that one shoe the old lady lived in.

...That could put a hurtin' on a river.
As far as clerics go... he's gonna be the very best, like no one ever was