Nytemare's PHB Rewrites: Armor & Shield Proficiency

[Nytemare3701]

+5 Adamantine heavy shield has 76 HP, not 93. (Base 26 = 20 * 40 / 30, +50 enhancement = 10 * 5) Also, adamantine only bypasses hardness less than 20, just so you should know.

Tarrasque actually does a ton more damage than it looks because it has Power Attack and a huge attack bonus. If it takes a mere 10 point penalty (and it's still attacking at +40-something) that gives it 4d8+27 (31-59, avg. 45, or avg. ~12 after hardness 40). Tarrasque is actually a weakling in that regard. Try a Storm Giant on for size.

Basic Storm Giant at CR 13 deals 4d6+21 damage (25-45, avg. 35, or avg. ~0.5 after hardness). It's using a two-handed weapon and has Power Attack. Give it a few class levels and NPC WBL to bring it up to 18-20th, and it should have about a +42 attack bonus for 4d6+31 damage (7 more BaB, 4 larger Str modifier, +4 weapon). By comparison, your AC should be 46 = 10 + 13 armor + 7 shield + 6 exotic armor + 5 deflection + 5 natural or so. Huh, it isn't as accurate as I thought it was. It's still an average of about 1.5 hits/round, though. Power Attack isn't even worth it at that point.

Anyways, I think the point is this. With the damage going around, you'll have to replace your shield every day or two, which is kinda annoying. Though not as bad as I thought it would be.

Less that you would replace it, more that it needs regular minor repairs. I'll make it a scaling DC though, so you can do more repairs with a better check.

[bearsarebrown]

Why can't the shield just absorb the damage? Making the character replace the shield is only a tax on WBL which is broken anyways. It's an inconvenience, not a balancing point.

[Nytemare3701]

Indestructible shields lead to people using them for all manner of shenanigans, and it's a free repair.

[Garryl]

Couldn't you just knock the blow away instead of absorbing it? Heck, just shunting the attack into a Sunder attempt and using the existing Sunder rules would emulate it effectively. An opposed attack roll, success on your part negates the attack, success on their part hurts the shield.

[Nytemare3701]

That works.

[veekie]

Actually, if you're going by realistic, nobody flat out blocks attacks with their shields, due to the fact that you're going to break your arm doing that and that a large flat piece of metal won't hold up long against an impact focused on a point on it.
You deflect(and the break their face with it) attacks or trap their weapon for a counterstrike.

[Garryl]

Shield Proficiency [Fighter]
You may use to block incoming attacks of all kinds.
Benefits:As an immediate action, the character can perform a shield block, making the shield the new target for an attack and changing the attack into an attempted sunder.
Special: If used against an ability that deals no damage (like Charm Person), the shield is of no use.


New use for Craft [Arms and Armor]
Shield Repair: A player may make a DC 20 Craft check to repair minor damages in a shield that is above 1/2 hp. You repair 2hp+1 per 5 you beat the check DC by.

How long does shield repair take?

The "sunder" attempt of shield proficiency should specify a few differences from a normal sunder attempt, like not provoking AoOs and removing the normal limitations of how you can start it (normally slashing or bludgeoning melee weapons, but not ranged attacks, spells, or piercing weapons). You might also want to have the defender make the opposed attack roll with the shield itself (using the shield's enhancement bonus if it isn't spiked, and probably specifying how to deal with shields that you can't attack with like tower shields and bucklers).

[Nytemare3701]

Shield Proficiency [Fighter]
You may use to block incoming attacks of all kinds.
Benefits:As an immediate action, the character can perform a shield block, making the shield the new target for an attack and changing the attack into an attempted sunder.
Special: If used against an ability that deals no damage (like Charm Person), the shield is of no use.


New use for Craft [Arms and Armor]
Shield Repair: A player may make a DC 20 Craft check to repair minor damages in a shield that is above 1/2 hp. You repair 2hp+1 per 5 you beat the check DC by.

How long does shield repair take?

The "sunder" attempt of shield proficiency should specify a few differences from a normal sunder attempt, like not provoking AoOs and removing the normal limitations of how you can start it (normally slashing or bludgeoning melee weapons, but not ranged attacks, spells, or piercing weapons). You might also want to have the defender make the opposed attack roll with the shield itself (using the shield's enhancement bonus if it isn't spiked, and probably specifying how to deal with shields that you can't attack with like tower shields and bucklers).

Set the repair time to 1 hour,clarified that it doesn't provoke unless it fails, and clarified weapon types.

[RobbyPants]

I still think you should drop the BAB requirements for armor.  Why should you wait until 10th level to want to wear heavy armor?  If you want it to scale on BAB but not force you to wait until a ridiculously high level, here's what I suggest:

Medium armor gets a base +2 AC boost, heavy gets a base +4 AC boost, and exotic armors get a base +6 AC boost.  When wearing an armor with which you are proficient, you get this flat bonus or a bonus equal to your BAB, whichever is lower.

So, once you're +6 BAB, you get the full bonus regardless.  This lets is scale by level a bit, and is hopefully a decent compromise.  So, looking at some numbers:

Scale mail: At level 1, a fighter would get +5 AC, which makes it a trade-off compared to a chain shirt.  At level 2+, it caps at +6 AC.

Hide armor: Still sucks, but a level 2 druid would get +4 AC, and a level 3+ druid would get +5 AC.  Might be worth considering.

Breast plate: Caps at +7 AC.  Definitely worth considering over a chain shirt at the low levels.

Split mail: The earliest heavy armor you can afford.  If you pick it up at the tail end of 1st level, it's +7 AC.  You can likely upgrade to full plate by 3rd level, so practically speaking, it will probably eclipse at +9 AC, even though it technically caps at +10 AC at 4th level.

Full plate: You get it at 3rd level for +11 AC and it caps at +12 at 4th level.

Exotic armors: The cost will tell you when you get it, but a +6 AC at 6th level is not overpowered, especially if you're spending a feat to get it.  If nothing else, it helps AC matter a bit longer in your career.

Mithril breastplate: +7 AC on a light armor, but you pay for it.

Mithril fullplate: +12 AC on a medium armor, but you really pay for it.

Adamantine will still be a point of contention, as it's just not good enough to keep up with mithril.  All in all, these numbers seem fine with me.  My biggest concern is that they stop scaling, so that armor still becomes fairly useless in double-digit levels.  Perhaps a flat scaling bonus on top of these would be best.  I could see it scaling faster for non-light armors as well.

[Nytemare3701]

What about 1/2 BAB as a bonus on light armor, BAB as a bonus on medium, and 2x BAB bonus on heavy/exotic?

[RobbyPants]

Uncapped from level 1?  It would have a similar effect and it's more simple.

Basically, you end up with the following breakdown (assuming you're aiming for high armor ahead of mobility):

Level 1: Scale mail (+5 AC)

Level 2: Split main (+10 AC)

Level 3: Fullplate (+14 AC)

Level 4: +1 Fullplate (+17 AC)

...

Level 7: +1 Mithril Fullplate (+23 AC) (just a speed boost when running, really)


Honestly, it might be a bit much, but it depends on what you're after.  Should level-appropriate monsters have a chance to hit you or not?  I'm not saying it breaks the game, or anything, but the typical AC jump from level 1 to 3 is about 4 (scale to fullplate), and now it would be 9.  It's certainly useful at low levels when more attacks rely on overcoming AC.

[Nytemare3701]

[RobbyPants]

Basically spells that penetrate SR and don't use attack rolls.  These are typically Conjuration-based, and may or may not allow a saving throw.

[bearsarebrown]

@RobbyPants, where are you getting +17 AC at level 4? Shouldn't it be +14?

SR equal to AC doesn't change much. It's still much to small of a figure. Adding it to touch AC would be better mechanically. Actually make it hard to land touch spells and rays instead of for sure hits at high levels. And Wraithstrike is fucking stupid.

And I stand by Shield Proficiency shouldn't be an Immediate Action. It should be an AoO. To many things use an Immediate Action or Swift Action as is, you'd never get a chance to use it at high levels. If you take Combat Reflexes you can use it multiple times per round even! And I think sundering the shield should just be removed. It adds a massive lag to the game for little reason. It's only there for 'verisimilitude' and not for balance.

[RobbyPants]

@RobbyPants, where are you getting +17 AC at level 4? Shouldn't it be +14?

Start with a base of 8 for the PHB value, add 8 more (2x BAB 4 for heavy armor) and 1 more for it being a +1 suit of armor.  I figure at level 4, you should be able to afford a +1 suit of fullplate.  Even if not, it'd still be +16 AC.

[bearsarebrown]

Oh my bad I was being dumb. I was thinking full BAB.

[RobbyPants]

Oh my bad I was being dumb. I was thinking full BAB.

No problem.

It's an interesting idea and it's very easy to pull off, but I guess it really depends on what you want from armor as to whether or not it's a good fix.  It certainly makes medium and heavy armors better at low levels, where they really matter.  Some theoretical observations:

Fighter: He'll have good AC at low levels at the cost of 10 feet of movement.  Against most things you'd expect to face, he won't get hit very often.  He'll likely have an AC of 16 to 20 depending on Dex and if he uses a shield at 1st level.  Orcs will hit on a natural 12 to 16.  This seems reasonable.  At level 3, he'll likely have an AC of 25 to 27, which is fucking huge for what the game expects.  Ogres will need a natural 17 to 19 to hit.  AC at level 5 is probably about 30 to 34, so trolls only hit on a natural 20.

Cleric: Per the fighter, but somewhat lower due to a slower BAB progression, prioritizing Wis (and maybe Cha) over Dex, and using a light shield instead of a heavy due to casting.  So at 3rd level, the cleric might have closer to an 22 - 24 AC (10 base + 12 fullplate + 0-1 Dex + 0-1 shield).  Not as good as the fighter, but still good.  Ogres hit on a natural 14 to 16.

Druid: Has a bit more incentive to use hide armor, but not much.  This incentive also doesn't kick in until level 2, when the class gets +1 BAB.  Basically, you trade in 10 feet of movement to get an AC boost equal to 1 + 1/2 BAB, or 1 + 3/8 class level.  Meh.

Rogue/Ranger/etc: You use light armor and you get a minor boost.  Full BAB classes pick it up faster than 3/4 BAB classes.  A nice minor boost, but nothing to write home about.

Barbarians: Incentive to use medium armor, but nothing crazy.  You've likely traded in Fast Movement for Pounce anyway, so you'll be charging a lot, and you might want to stay in light armor to keep your charge range at 60 feet instead of 40.  You have a real decision to make when you can afford mithril full plate.  By that point, you'll be roughly 7th level or so, which means that full plate has a base AC of 22 (8 + 14).  Compared to a chain shirt (base AC of 7) or mithril breastplate (base AC 12), it might be worth it.


In general: This scales fast enough that you might not have to worry about nickel-and-diming yourself with all of the little +1 AC boosts like you normally would.  So, you might pick up +1 on your armor for 1K, but you have less incentive to pick up a +1 ring and +1 amulet at 2K each.  At mid levels, you can keep your AC competitive really cheap, and you might be able to boost it to competitive levels with magical items at high levels.  You might find fighters going toe-to-toe with dragons at high levels... until the dragon casts Wraithstrike!

Really, this seems to scale too fast past level 1 until probably into the double-digits.  I guess it depends on what you want.  If you want heavy armor to be the De Facto "I can't get hit" card, then this works nicely.  As mentioned in other threads, you'll need a good offense to keep you from turning into the turtle that the enemies simply ignore.  Anything that lets you make touch attacks becomes much more valuable against armor-wearing PCs and NPCs.

[bearsarebrown]

What if the bonus overlapped with the base armor value? IE, Fullplate wouldn't start granting a bonus until level 4. This might be too drastic of a change though.

[RobbyPants]

Well, lets see...

Chain Shirt: Assuming a full BAB, this would remain the same until level 10.

Scale Mail: This would remain the same until level 5, about four levels after it stopped being useful.

Full Plate: This would remain the same until level 5, at which point it would increase two points a level.  So, at 5th level, you'd probably have a +1 suit of fullplate, and maybe +1 ring or amulet, and if you have a 12 Dex, you end up with an AC of 23, which isn't that much.  It's basically two higher than it would otherwise be.  A troll claw hits on a natural 14 and the bite hits on a natural 19.  At level 7, assuming a +2 suit of armor and another +1 AC item, you'd be at AC 29, and a hill giant hits you on a natural 13.


So, it looks like it's technically an improvement, but I'm not sure it's enough of one to warrant the fix.  It'd require something more drastic to make the medium and heavy armors worth the decision.  Actually, other than mithril armors, the slowed progression makes medium armors totally worthless.

[Nytemare3701]

Well, lets see...

Chain Shirt: Assuming a full BAB, this would remain the same until level 10.

Scale Mail: This would remain the same until level 5, about four levels after it stopped being useful.

Full Plate: This would remain the same until level 5, at which point it would increase two points a level.  So, at 5th level, you'd probably have a +1 suit of fullplate, and maybe +1 ring or amulet, and if you have a 12 Dex, you end up with an AC of 23, which isn't that much.  It's basically two higher than it would otherwise be.  A troll claw hits on a natural 14 and the bite hits on a natural 19.  At level 7, assuming a +2 suit of armor and another +1 AC item, you'd be at AC 29, and a hill giant hits you on a natural 13.


So, it looks like it's technically an improvement, but I'm not sure it's enough of one to warrant the fix.  It'd require something more drastic to make the medium and heavy armors worth the decision.  Actually, other than mithril armors, the slowed progression makes medium armors totally worthless.