Author Topic: Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect and (Su)/Etc. Abilities - What are the limits?  (Read 4851 times)

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Endarire

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Metamagic Effect (Su) - Player's Guide to Faerun 62
At 3rd level, an incantatrix can attempt to apply a metamagic feat she possesses to a persistent spell effect that is already in place.

The Questions
1: Can I use a metamagic rod on Metamagic Effect?

2: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a (Su) ability that acts like a spell?

3: Can I use Metamagic Effect on the Travel Domain ability?

4: Can I use Metamagic Effect on the Summon Elemental reserve feat?  Note the Elemental "acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell."

For our purposes, I assume a Small Elemetal is a L4 spell, a Medium Elemental is a L6 spell, and a Large Elemental is a L8 spell.

I also assume that the reserve feat is a (Su) ability which works as a (Su) ability and as a spell.

5: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a (Su) ability that doesn't act like a spell?

6: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a psionic power, assuming default magic-psionic transparency levels?

7: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a psi-like (Ps) ability?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 01:05:55 PM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

BeholderSlayer

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Metamagic Effect (Su) - Player's Guide to Faerun 62
At 3rd level, an incantatrix can attempt to apply a metamagic feat she possesses to a persistent spell effect that is already in place.

The Questions
1: Can I use a metamagic rod on Metamagic Effect?
Maybe, it's debatable. I lean toward no. The Incantrix does not possess the feat, the rod possesses the feat. The incantrix possesses a rod that possesses the feat.

2: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a (Su) ability that acts like a spell?
No. An Su may mimic a spell, but is not in fact a spell.

3: Can I use Metamagic Effect on the Travel Domain ability?
No. Not a spell.

4: Can I use Metamagic Effect on the Summon Elemental reserve feat?  Note the Elemental "acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell."

For our purposes, I assume a Small Elemetal is a L4 spell, a Medium Elemental is a L6 spell, and a Large Elemental is a L8 spell.


I also assume that the reserve feat is a (Su) ability which works as a (Su) ability and as a spell.
No. Supernatural abilities are not spells.

5: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a (Su) ability that doesn't act like a spell?
Of course not, that doesn't even make sense.

6: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a psionic power, assuming default magic-psionic transparency levels?
No, you may not. Metamagic feats do not work on psionic powers, ever.

7: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a psi-like (Ps) ability?
No.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Spells are not Spell Like (despite the strangeness of that statement) and they're definitely not supernatural.  In fact, while the ability to cast a spell is an ability, spells themselves aren't abilities at all, so anything that modifies an ability (Ex, Sp, Su, Na) will not work on spells, and anything modifies a spell will not work on any ability.

So in the end, as Beholder put it, no no no no no no no.

JaronK

BeholderSlayer

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A little off topic here, I've always taken issue with calling spellcasting an Ex ability. I will grant that the only time it's given a type it was given Ex, but I feel that was a mistake in both authorship and editing.

I always treat spellcasting as a "non-ability ability," by this I mean none of Na, Ex, Su, Sp, etc. I realize some people will call this a house rule, but it works. It eliminates that pesky problem where people try to argue Shapechange should grant them cleric spellcasting in Solar form. I also realize it doesn't make Shapechange any less broken, but it helps a little bit.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

BrokeAndDrive

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I always treat spellcasting as a "non-ability ability," by this I mean none of Na, Ex, Su, Sp, etc. I realize some people will call this a house rule, but it works. It eliminates that pesky problem where people try to argue Shapechange should grant them cleric spellcasting in Solar form. I also realize it doesn't make Shapechange any less broken, but it helps a little bit.
Just like I said the other day:

Quote from: Li'le Ol' Me
There are very good arguments against allowing spellcasting from, say, a solar or dragon since they are NOT specifically labeled extraordinary or supernatural -- not to mention it's silly to say casting spells is as extraordinary or natural as punching someone in the face four times in six seconds, even when they are labeled such for monsters in newer Monster Manuals, which can just be considered a typo or oversight by designers lacking a rabid munchkin's encyclopedic knowledge (and since you do NOT gain spell-like abilities nor psi-like abilities, logically you can't gain other spells either unless they're specifically labeled [Su] like a beholder's eye rays, and in fact a good houserule is to label all monster spellcasting as [Sp] just to avoid these shenanigans, holy shit a paragraph-spanning run-on sentence... of the gods). Furthermore, if we accept the premise that "anything not labeled = (Ex)", then take a look at the Ravid entry:

Feats:  A ravid has the Multiattack feat even through it does not have the requisite three natural weapons.

Notice how it doesn't say Feats (Su): (my next character will be a Chinese cute bruiser named Fetsoo) or anything like that. If you think all things that aren't specifically labeled are (Ex), then you accept that "a ravid has the Multiattack feat even through it does not have the requisite three natural weapons" is gained with shapechange. If you don't get why that scythe-crit's your argument, which held only piss to begin with, go sit in the dunce chair and think it through until you figure it out.

On-topic:

6: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a psionic power, assuming default magic-psionic transparency levels?
No, you may not. Metamagic feats do not work on psionic powers, ever.

7: Can I use Metamagic Effect on a psi-like (Ps) ability?
No.
New class: Psionatrix. Manifetrix. Phrenatrix. Braniatrix. Whatevrix. Because psionix isn't broken enough *runs and hides from the volley of thrown objex* Excuse me for the punx.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 05:01:51 AM by BrokeAndDrive »
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~

That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Uh, feats are (ex) by default.  And bonus feats (which multiattack is one of), are a kind of feat, which in this case ignores prereqs.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 06:40:21 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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BrokeAndDrive

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My assertion that "every ability defaults to (Ex)" is retarded still stands strong.
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~

That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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My assertion that "every ability defaults to (Ex)" is retarded still stands strong.

Your assertion stands, like a lone pine on the side of a mountain, without backing, surrounded by meaningless gusts; whether the wind, or your insults, in either case no information is to be gained from listening.
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Solo

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If a lone pine falls on the side of a mountain with no one around to hear it, did it really make a sound?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Endarire

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Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

JaronK

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A little off topic here, I've always taken issue with calling spellcasting an Ex ability. I will grant that the only time it's given a type it was given Ex, but I feel that was a mistake in both authorship and editing.

I always treat spellcasting as a "non-ability ability," by this I mean none of Na, Ex, Su, Sp, etc. I realize some people will call this a house rule, but it works. It eliminates that pesky problem where people try to argue Shapechange should grant them cleric spellcasting in Solar form. I also realize it doesn't make Shapechange any less broken, but it helps a little bit.

Check the Monster Manual, page 315 as well as 6.  There it states that all special abilities (special attacks are a subset thereof) are all Su, Sp, or Ex.  Spells are always listed as a special attack, so they must be a special ability, so they must be one of those types.  As such, it can't be a non ability ability (in fact no ability lacks a type... abilities that are none of the above, such as run speed or claw attacks, are Na by default, as per the article "All About Polymorph" and PHB page 180).  The specific quote from page 315:  "A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su)."  This is backed up by the SRD if you'd like to check there.

Since Sp and Su abilities are defined by how they're not spells, spells can't be one of those.  Furthermore, because Invoke Magic works in Antimagic Fields, you still have your spellcasting ability in an antimagic field (it's just that none of your spells actually work) so the actual ability to cast spells itself must be non magical even if the spells themselves are magical (much like Wildshape is an Su ability that grants Na abilities like claw attacks).  That means they must be Ex.

Also check the Rules of the Game article "All about polymorph" for more details on ability types if this isn't enough information.  Page 180 of the PHB may help as well.

And if you don't like that spells are granted by Shapechange, do what I do: don't allow Shapechange anyway because it's a broken spell.  Just because something's in the rules doesn't mean you as a DM have to allow it.  But at the same time, just because something's overpowered doesn't mean it's not RAW. 

JaronK
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:57:33 PM by JaronK »

BeholderSlayer

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A little off topic here, I've always taken issue with calling spellcasting an Ex ability. I will grant that the only time it's given a type it was given Ex, but I feel that was a mistake in both authorship and editing.

I always treat spellcasting as a "non-ability ability," by this I mean none of Na, Ex, Su, Sp, etc. I realize some people will call this a house rule, but it works. It eliminates that pesky problem where people try to argue Shapechange should grant them cleric spellcasting in Solar form. I also realize it doesn't make Shapechange any less broken, but it helps a little bit.

Check the Monster Manual, page 315 as well as 6.  There it states that all special abilities (special attacks are a subset thereof) are all Su, Sp, or Ex.  Spells are always listed as a special attack, so they must be a special ability, so they must be one of those types.  As such, it can't be a non ability ability (in fact no ability lacks a type... abilities that are none of the above, such as run speed or claw attacks, are Na by default, as per the article "All About Polymorph" and PHB page 180).  The specific quote from page 315:  "A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su)."  This is backed up by the SRD if you'd like to check there.

Since Sp and Su abilities are defined by how they're not spells, spells can't be one of those.  Furthermore, because Invoke Magic works in Antimagic Fields, you still have your spellcasting ability in an antimagic field (it's just that none of your spells actually work) so the actual ability to cast spells itself must be non magical even if the spells themselves are magical (much like Wildshape is an Su ability that grants Na abilities like claw attacks).  That means they must be Ex.

Also check the Rules of the Game article "All about polymorph" for more details on ability types if this isn't enough information.  Page 180 of the PHB may help as well.

And if you don't like that spells are granted by Shapechange, do what I do: don't allow Shapechange anyway because it's a broken spell.  Just because something's in the rules doesn't mean you as a DM have to allow it.  But at the same time, just because something's overpowered doesn't mean it's not RAW. 

JaronK
This is all true, I understand and agree that this is exactly what the rules say. It's not, however, what I was intending to get at. I like Shapechange as a spell, and I like to have it still in my campaigns despite its broken nature. Believe me, I've done a LOT of research on all of this, so I know how it all works. I wasn't really trying to argue that spellcasting is by RAW a non-ability ability (the reason I use those words is because of the statement that all abilities are Na, Ex, Su, Sp, etc). I was just stating how I rule it in my campaigns, and acknowledged the fact that it is most likely a houserule.

I don't want to ban Shapechange. I like having it in my campaigns. I can still make things a challenge even with Shapechange allowed. I just think that the idea that Shapechange should grant the spellcasting of a Solar or dragon or whatever to be really, really stupid. Not that it's not RAW, just that it's stupid. For that reason I adjust the rules to be what I want them to be, since I don't want to ban Shapechange.

I hope that makes more sense. I wasn't insinuating that my ruling was RAW, or at least I wasn't trying to do so.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Empirate

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The thing I don't get about the Solar spellcasting Shapechange "it's borken" thing is this:

So you're shapechanged into a Solar. Congratz, you now have the ability to cast as a Cleric. I really hope you prayed for your spells today (while shapechanged, right after resting for eight hours). Didn't? Well, you can now use that Wand of Cure Light Wounds, so that's what Shapechange brought you there. Actual Cleric spellcasting? Not without praying, no.

betrayor

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The thing I don't get about the Solar spellcasting Shapechange "it's borken" thing is this:

So you're shapechanged into a Solar. Congratz, you now have the ability to cast as a Cleric. I really hope you prayed for your spells today (while shapechanged, right after resting for eight hours). Didn't? Well, you can now use that Wand of Cure Light Wounds, so that's what Shapechange brought you there. Actual Cleric spellcasting? Not without praying, no.

So if for example you had a persistent extended shapechange into a Solar you could pray for the spells?

Bozwevial

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The thing I don't get about the Solar spellcasting Shapechange "it's borken" thing is this:

So you're shapechanged into a Solar. Congratz, you now have the ability to cast as a Cleric. I really hope you prayed for your spells today (while shapechanged, right after resting for eight hours). Didn't? Well, you can now use that Wand of Cure Light Wounds, so that's what Shapechange brought you there. Actual Cleric spellcasting? Not without praying, no.

So if for example you had a persistent extended shapechange into a Solar you could pray for the spells?
You can probably lop off extended, since it only takes an hour and you can do it at pretty much any time without the need to rest beforehand. Hell, even a non-modified Shapechange lasts almost three hours minimum, so under the right circumstances you've got ample time.

Empirate

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Sure, if you make your Shapechange Persistent, you're golden. This alone requires even more cheese/investment: Spelldancer needs lots of crappy feats; Incantatrix needs to make a DC 63 Spellcraft check (which is not necessarily trivial even at 20th level); Druid needs some gymnastics to get DMM.
So what is in fact broken here: the Shapechange spell itself, or the fact that ways exist to make it persistent?

Also, you'll have to pick your prayer time once and stick to it, as far as I'm aware: a Cleric can't just pray whenever. And it does take an hour, so there's that.

Bozwevial

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Also, you'll have to pick your prayer time once and stick to it, as far as I'm aware: a Cleric can't just pray whenever. And it does take an hour, so there's that.
Yeah, true, but if you're already entering dodgy rules territory you could argue that you choose the time when you gain the ability.

betrayor

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Sure, if you make your Shapechange Persistent, you're golden. This alone requires even more cheese/investment: Spelldancer needs lots of crappy feats; Incantatrix needs to make a DC 63 Spellcraft check (which is not necessarily trivial even at 20th level); Druid needs some gymnastics to get DMM.
So what is in fact broken here: the Shapechange spell itself, or the fact that ways exist to make it persistent?

Also, you'll have to pick your prayer time once and stick to it, as far as I'm aware: a Cleric can't just pray whenever. And it does take an hour, so there's that.
It is pretty easy if you use divine metamagic.....

JaronK

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This is all true, I understand and agree that this is exactly what the rules say. It's not, however, what I was intending to get at. I like Shapechange as a spell, and I like to have it still in my campaigns despite its broken nature. Believe me, I've done a LOT of research on all of this, so I know how it all works. I wasn't really trying to argue that spellcasting is by RAW a non-ability ability (the reason I use those words is because of the statement that all abilities are Na, Ex, Su, Sp, etc). I was just stating how I rule it in my campaigns, and acknowledged the fact that it is most likely a houserule.

I don't want to ban Shapechange. I like having it in my campaigns. I can still make things a challenge even with Shapechange allowed. I just think that the idea that Shapechange should grant the spellcasting of a Solar or dragon or whatever to be really, really stupid. Not that it's not RAW, just that it's stupid. For that reason I adjust the rules to be what I want them to be, since I don't want to ban Shapechange.

I hope that makes more sense. I wasn't insinuating that my ruling was RAW, or at least I wasn't trying to do so.

Ah, sometimes it's hard to say when someone's talking about RAW as opposed to their house rules.  I'd never allow Shapechange to grant spells in a game even if I did allow the spell in the first place (but since I usually ban T1 and 2 classes anyway, that's not much of an issue).  Saying "screw it, in my games spells can't be granted by Shapechange" is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

For Empirate: Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell gives at least 6 hours of Shapechange time.  That's hardly serious cheese or investment, and is sufficient to go deal with whatever primary threat you wanted to deal with.

JaronK

Empirate

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OK, seems I'll just have to adopt your POV: "In my game, Shapechange doesn't grant spellcasting ability."

Not that it comes up a lot. The highest level party I DMed for was 14th level in the end.