Author Topic: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?  (Read 13274 times)

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Midnight_v

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2011, 01:23:15 AM »
Quote
Dammit, now I actually have to come up w/ something.  Sorry if these comments are less focused than a full build
Hey Let me help you with that. I remember the original from back in the day.

From JanusJones
This is a bardic martial adept build capable of, at 20th level, dealing an extra 12d6 energy damage on all of his attacks - before he adds on martial maneuvers or stances. Better yet, he's a BARD.  ;)

  I was recently prowling through my ToB when I came across a feat I'd seen, but never really paid any attention to. The feat? Song of the White Raven.

This feat's primary ability is pathetic: it grants you the ability to start bardic music as swift action when in a white raven stance. So what? But that's there primarily to fool you into missing the second part of the feat, where the real juice is: that it lets your Crusader AND Warblade levels stack with bard levels for the purposes of the bonus from Inspire Courage!

So what, I hear you ask. After all, the bonus from Inspire Courage is only +4 by level 20. Bah humbug!

But wait! Due to a lovely little set of feats you can get that bonus up to +12 by 20th. Behold!

Classes:

 [spoiler]Bard 3, Crusader OR Warblade 17. Either Crusader or Warblade will do just fine, but each will have its own advantages and disadvatages. Crusaders will have healing abilities, but Warblades can take advantage of the high Int necessary for Words of Creation and get bonus feats to boot. More on the pros and cons of each later.[/spoiler]
Attributes:
[spoiler]Int and Cha at least 15. After that, combat stats should have prevalence: Str, Con, and Dex are all important.[/spoiler]
Feats:[spoiler]
 Dragontouched (1st), Dragonfire Inspiration (human), Song of the Heart (3rd), Song of the White Raven (6th), Words of Creation (9th), Two-Weapon Fighting (12th), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (15th), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (18th).[/spoiler]
Race:
[spoiler]You have two good options here. The first is obvious - human. The second, of course, is Dragonborn, which removes the need for Dragontouched and gives you a number of supplemental abilities. Now the problem with this is that Dragontouched gives you access to sorcerer-based draconic feats, including Draconic Heritage. Draconic Heritage - Battle or Emerald Dragon can convert your Dragonfire Inspiration damage to sonic, which will go a long way towards making it more effective against higher-level enemies. The basic question is whether you'd rather have fire damage on a Dragonborn with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (with martial maneuvers to cover fire immune and fire resistant enemies) or sonic damage (effecting a whole lot more enemies) on a human with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (in effect, sacrificing an attack for a better energy type).[/spoiler]
How it Works: [spoiler]
This build is predicated on a couple of feats. The first, of course, is Song of the White Raven, which allows you to, as a Bard 3/Crusader or Warblade 17, count as a Bard 20 for the purposes of Inspire Courage. The bast bonus of +4 to attack and damage from Inspire Courage is then synergized and amplified with a series of feats. First there's Song of the Heart, which adds +1 to the bonus from Inspire Courage. Next there's the swift action 1st level spell Inspirational Boost, which adds yet another +1 (bringing the 20th level total to +6). Finally, there's the very sexy Words of Creation from the Book of Exalted Deeds, which allows you to, for the low, low price of only 3d4 non-lethal damage, DOUBLE the bonus from Inspire Courage. This brings our total to a whopping +12. True, adding a horn from Complete Adventurer could add another +2, but that would require an extra hand - and this is a two-weapon fighting build.[/spoiler]
Dragonfire Inspiration
[spoiler]is the reason that the build aims for dual-wielding. With Dragonfire Inspiration you can transform the bonus from Inspire Courage from a morale bonus to attack and damage into an equal number of fire damage dice added to attacks. In other words, +12d6 at 20th level. If you have the ability, the Draconic Heritage feat can allow you to transform this damage into a different energy type (acid and sonic being notably nice choices). This can be kind of dicey to get, however, and may cost you Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.[/spoiler]Ultimately, you end up with 9th level maneuvers, a +19 BaB, and the ability to gain either +12d6 energy damage to you and your allies' attacks or +12 to hit and damage three times per day. You also gain a +12 to saves vs. charms and fear when using bardic music.

[spoiler]Crusader vs. Warblade:
  Both of these classes can be quite impressive at 17th level. Crusader packs some early punch, allowing you access to healing maneuvers and stances that will not only make you the party buffer but the party healer as well. Moreover, your 15 Cha will go to work shoring up your Will save, and furious counterstrike and steely resolve will make you an impressive tank. At higher levels, Aura of Triumph will make a two-weapon fighter capable of huge amounts of healing each round - up to 4x7 = 28 HP while damaging the enemy! For straight-up damage, Aura of Chaos allows each of your damage dice to "explode," re-rolling on a max result. With 12d6 added to each attack, a run of 6's can add up to an impressive amount of whomp.

Warblade, however, wins the straight damage competition. With gems like Raging Mongoose and Pouncing Charge from the Tiger Claw discipline, a two-weapon fighter can attain even more attacks per round and even make full attacks on a charge. Diamond Mind's Time Stands Still even allows two full attacks in a single round, making your damage output truly unbelievable. Moreover, Iron Heart and Diamond Mind maneuvers like Moment of Perfect Mind, Iron Heart Surge, and Iron Heart Endurance can allow you to withstand almost any assault, making you not only strong but tough. 4 extra bonus feats allow you to shore up your weak points (Blind Fight, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, and Quick Draw can all be very handy additions to yoru repetoire), and the Warblade's ability to add Int mod to various checks can be very handy (after all, Words of Creation requires at least a 15 Int!).

Both are excellent choices. Both have pros and cons. The Crusader will be a better party player and tougher (healing counts for a lot!). The Warblade will be a more versatile fighter and a more effective damage dealer. The choice is yours, and should be based on personal preferences and character style. Go for what your gut tells you would be more fun!
Damage Output: This is dependent on your build, so I'll address each separately. Both builds assume the following starting stats (based on a 28-point buy):

Str 14
Con 10
Dex 15
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 14

One level-up point into Int, one into Cha, two into Dex, and one into Str. With a +6 enhancement item and +5 from a Tome, the character's final Strength score should be 26. An enhancement item for Dex will get you to where you need to be for the various TWF feats.[/spoiler]

CRUSADER:
[spoiler]7 attacks wielding two whips while in the Aura of Chaos stance.

To Hit: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2 from BaB and TWF, +8 from Strength, +5 enhancement. Total is +30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15, with the potential for another +5 from furious counterstrike.

Damage: 1d3+13+12d6 four times, 1d3+9+12d6 three times. Total will be 7d3+79+84d6 on a full attack, or 7d3+114+84d6 with a fully charged furious counterstrike.

Assuming Aura of Chaos, the d3s will blow up 33% of the time and the d6s around 16% of the time. This raises the total to 9d3+79+99d6, or . . .

(9-27) + (99-510) + 79 = 187 - 616 damage

This rises to 222 - 651 if furious counterstrike has been fully charged[/spoiler].

WARBLADE:
[spoiler]7 attacks wielding a longsword and shortsword while in Punishing Stance.

To Hit: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2 from BaB and TWF, +8 from Strength, +5 enhancement. Total is +30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15. Double this when using Time Stands Still, add 4 attacks when attacking with Raging Mongoose, or use all these attacks at the end of a charge when employing Pouncing Charge.

Time Stands Still Damage: 1d8+13+12d6 eight times, 1d6+9+12d6 six times. Total will be 8d8+158+168d6 on a full attack.

(8-64) + (168-1008) + 158 = 334 - 1230 damage[/spoiler]The clear winner for damage is the Warblade, but the Crusader's style, steely resolve (able to delay 25 points of damage per round!), and healing abilities should not be discounted. Either build is viable and fun!
Tactics
[spoiler]You only have three uses of your bardic music per day, so save them for big fights. The rest of the time your martial maneuvers should be more than enough to take care of any and all enemies. Decide on whether to apply your energy dice to damage or the morale bonus to hit and damage based on your opponent's strengths and weaknesses. If you have fire dice and are fighting a red dragon, use your music to gain a morale bonus to hit and damage - you'll need it just to land your martial strikes! If fighting something with a lower AC that's vulnerable to your fire (but is dangerous), pull out your Dragonfire Inspiration and go to town.

Choose maneuvers that help your teammates. Your Dragonfire Inspiration will make other melee characters, summoners, clerics with undead minions, and even mounts and cohorts FAR more dangerous, so try to work tactically and keep them within the range of your music's effect. White Raven strikes and boosts can further aid teammates in closing with enemies, taking multiple actions, and even gaining extra hits, so don't hesitate to coordinate your crew's tactics. The other PCs will come to love you for this, and the synergistic effect of party-boosting maneuvers paired with your bardic music abilities will prove a daunting and effective combo.

If you're a Crusader, make sure to buy a composite longbow (which you'll be able to wield). Use it to land hits against targets you can't approach in melee. Sure, you'll only get 4 attacks per round, but your bardic music will make those hits hurt far more than any other melee-oriented martial adept could. If you're a Warblade you'll have to settle for the shortbow that your Bard levels give you proficiency with, but the loss of range and damage will be, at worst, marginal.

As a Crusader, use your healing aura to keep your teammates healthy and White Raven to keep them tactically efficient. Your strength in battle is based on your ability to take huge hits and keep ticking, bolstering your foes and decimating your enemies.

As a Warblade, look to close the combat quickly. With Tiger Claw maneuvers you'll be able to charge in and make a full attack against the most powerful foes within the first round of combat, leaving your allies to mop up the support forces. Consider Moment of Alacrity to ensure gaining initiative, and use the edge provided to annihilate any truly dangerous enemies right off the bat.[/spoiler]
Low Levels:
          This character does surprisingly well at low levels, managing a quite decent damage output even before accquiring Two-Weapon Fighting and Words of Creation. At level 1 you can add 2d6 with Inspirational Boost and Dragonfire Inspiration. By 3rd this becomes an extra 3d6 damage. At 4th level Warblades pick up Punishing Stance, for an impressive +4d6 damage when using bardic music. Wield a greatsword and you're swinging a 6d6 pound hammer at 4th level! With Crusaders, the benefit comes from Martial Spirit, which lets you heal 2 HP with every swing. By 8th level your extra fire damage is up to 4d6, which is doubled at 9th by Words of Creation. Meanwhile, you're constantly gaining maneuvers and stances and just generally getting buffer.
  Well, I hope you all enjoyed reading this as much as I've dug writing it! Stay cool, and remember - just 'cause you like singing don't mean you're a pansy!  
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Thank you Janus Jones. You're one of the greats. -Midnight_v
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 01:27:33 AM by Midnight_v »
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Hitoshura

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2011, 02:50:16 AM »
The Warblade should be able to pull off MUCH higher damage without resource expenditure, so that's a solid start.  Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics should mean you're always useful, too.

JaronK

If i may, i don't think it's THAT high, let's summon a Voor (Monster Manual IV), shall we?

Base creature:

[spoiler]Voor
Always NE Large outsider (evil, extraplanar, yugoloth)
Init: +2;
Senses: blind, blindsense 120 ft.; Listen +11
Languages: Abyssal, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
AC:hp: 37 (5 HD); DR 5/good
Immune: acid, fire, gaze attacks, illusions, poison, visual effects
Resist: cold 10, electricity 10; SR 15
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
Melee: 4 piercing tentacles +10 each (1d6+6) and 2 claws +8 each (1d6+3 )
Space: 10 ft.; Reach: 10 ft. (20 ft. with tentacles)
Base Atk: +5; Grp: +19
Atk Options: Combat Reflexes, aligned strike (evil), rend 2d6+9
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 5, Wis 8, Cha 7
SQ: scentless, yugoloth traits
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Multiattack
Skills: Climb +22, Diplomacy +0, Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Sense Motive +7, Survival +7[/spoiler]

Without any buff, and considering everything hits, it's an average 60 damage

Now let's add the aforementioned Bonuses (just for fun =ppp)

Quote
Summonling Bonuses
+7 HP/HD
+6 melee damage.  (+4 on other weapon damage, and +2 on spell damage.)
+4 melee accuracy
+2 Fortitude
+2 on saves, skill checks, and all other d20 rolls.  (I also account for this +2 in the melee accuracy.)

[spoiler]Voor
Always NE Large outsider (evil, extraplanar, yugoloth)
Init: +4;
Senses: blind, blindsense 120 ft.; Listen +13
Languages: Abyssal, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
AC:hp: 72 (5 HD); DR 5/good
Immune: acid, fire, gaze attacks, illusions, poison, visual effects
Resist: cold 10, electricity 10; SR 15
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
Melee: 4 piercing tentacles +14 each (1d6+12) and 2 claws +12 each (1d6+9 )
Space: 10 ft.; Reach: 10 ft. (20 ft. with tentacles)
Base Atk: +5; Grp: +27
Atk Options: Combat Reflexes, aligned strike (evil), rend 2d6+15
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 5, Wis 8, Cha 7
SQ: scentless, yugoloth traits
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Multiattack
Skills: Climb +24, Diplomacy +2, Listen +13, Move Silently +12, Sense Motive +9, Survival +9[/spoiler]

If i made the math right, that's an Average 109 damage (considering everything hits) in one round per Voor, and a 10th level Malconvoker can call 1d3+1 of those...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 02:56:01 AM by Hitoshura »

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2011, 04:35:00 AM »
But an attack bonus of +14 at 10th level is very low. Seriously, the damage doesn't matter if it can't hit.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2011, 04:52:20 AM »
But an attack bonus of +14 at 10th level is very low. Seriously, the damage doesn't matter if it can't hit.

+16 because they are probably gonna flank, but yeah. It wont hit a lot without a proper mr. Bard giving it +11 on it's attack rolls. And singing a sweet song of +11d6 Damage.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Brainpiercing

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2011, 06:49:31 AM »
But an attack bonus of +14 at 10th level is very low. Seriously, the damage doesn't matter if it can't hit.

+16 because they are probably gonna flank, but yeah. It wont hit a lot without a proper mr. Bard giving it +11 on it's attack rolls. And singing a sweet song of +11d6 Damage.
Except it's either/or unless you expend two uses of bardic music and use something to sustain the first one. (Melodious weapon, IIRC)

In which case you have +11 (by your number) to hit and +11, +11d6 to damage. I think not using DFI in this case is actually a superior choice, especially if you have more than three battles per day, and don't want the Warblade/bard to feel useless after the first two.

Mixster

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2011, 06:56:30 AM »
But an attack bonus of +14 at 10th level is very low. Seriously, the damage doesn't matter if it can't hit.

+16 because they are probably gonna flank, but yeah. It wont hit a lot without a proper mr. Bard giving it +11 on it's attack rolls. And singing a sweet song of +11d6 Damage.
Except it's either/or unless you expend two uses of bardic music and use something to sustain the first one. (Melodious weapon, IIRC)

In which case you have +11 (by your number) to hit and +11, +11d6 to damage. I think not using DFI in this case is actually a superior choice, especially if you have more than three battles per day, and don't want the Warblade/bard to feel useless after the first two.

Or you could be a war chanter, or a seeker of the song. Or take lingering song so it doesn't matter since it will last for a minute.

But yeah, you don't really need DFI in those cases, it is just the "cool" thing to add.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Hitoshura

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2011, 12:16:49 PM »
You can always make them invisible  :lmao

Nevertheless, i don't think it's a too low attack, CA in this level is around ~22 unless you specialize in it (or before buffs)

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2011, 02:17:42 AM »
sigh ... every thread devolves into magic v. mundanes nowadays on BG, doesn't it?
You can thank the guy who started that mundanes vs magic thread some time back, who didn't realize what floodgates s/he was opening via unwittingly committing NAME IT (scroll down or CTRL+F). No, I'm not blaming him for all the years of arguments, don't make me tard-cap god damn it. I bet a bunch of boobs' broken irony klaxons just sounded off from those who don't get what NAME IT really means-- fuck, I'm tard-capping again! I hate stupid people who can't keep up with the rest of class.

Time to focus and get back on track.

All those years of fighter-vs-wizards arguments are exactly why WotC made everyone roughly the same power level in 4e.

And removed alignment requirements on paladins -- fuck you, 50+ pages of bickering about code of conduct every week! Even though people can just ignore that shit and move on with their gaming, but don't for some fucking reason as if people being wrong (IYO) on the Internet just makes people so self-righteously indignant and a'roarin' to earn Internet Beat-Down Points, E-Dick Booster Shots, and Morally-Offended Awards.

And neutered alignment itself, making Good and Evil basically irrelevant and optional -- but you still can't be a necromancer because playing with the dead is teh evilz... wait, what?

Nor can you even play teh evilz at all; you're flat-out forbidden by RAW -- fuck you, 50+ pages of bickering about evil PCs every week! If you bitch about your toys, we'll just take 'em away! Ha ha ha ha! Suck it, customers!

And gave fighters nice things, and took away a lot of the wizard's/cleric's/druid's nice things (oh wait, no druids at all in the PHB! refer to taking toys away) -- no, you may not have a fighter as a class feature.

Or polymorph into a Colossal fighter with 60+ Str and more attacks than a full attack with BAB of 16+.

Or disregard utterly your Armor Class and your Hit Points (squishy wizard? sez YOU :lol) by making yourself invulnerable to physical attack with the trifecta of Mirror Image + Displacement + Blur, or just Levitate or Stoneskin or Ghostform or Ironguard or... Alternatively, do this WHILE POLYMORPHED INTO THE COLOSSAL FIGHTER WITH 60+ STR AND MORE ATTACKS THAN A FULL ATTACK WITH BAB OF 16+. And THEN turning mid-to-high-level play against other mage-types into an ever-escalating cold war of Detect Scrying/Nondetection/Mind Blank/True Seeing/Initiative/Necklace of Permanent Effulgent Epuration/Etc five-hour preparation for rocket tag against every single BG -- not even the BBEG, I'm referring to every. Last. Stinking. Little. Fucking. Mook. With access to 4th-lvl spells or better. Yeah the barbarian can chop a boulder in half with his cute little Leap Attack/Battle Jumper/Shock Trooper/Combat Brute/+3 Greataxe of Choppity/+4 Gauntlets of Strongity, but even if he can dish out 200 damage a round, he'll never be able to blast the boulder to bits with a lightning bolt, or summon a beast that gets the boulder stuck between its teeth, or telekinetically juggle boulders, or chat with God and ask Him to create a boulder that He cannot lift, and drop it on the barbarian's skull. Gotta love the "omgz look at the 50 damage a strike from that fighter! NERF! NERF! WHILE TURNING A BLIND EYE TO EVERY LEVEL 1 WIZARD'S GREASE THAT UNCEREMONIOUSLY TRANSFORMS EVERY TARRASQUE-RIDING WAR HULKING HURLER INTO A PAIR OF KITTENS!! HEEEEEE!!!" :banghead

Or turn every enemy on the battlefield into lunchmeat with a standard action while the fighter has to rely on poking one monster at a time with a sharpened stick, while the wizard gets bigger and better ways to turn the entire battlefield into lunchmeat (while still keeping all his previous, ever-rising pile of shiny toys!) while the fighter gets to look forward another +1 to attack and damage rolls on level-up...


An analogy: the fighter never finished high school but works out constantly, whereas the wizard (a twiggy dweeb who got beaten up by the fighter as a kid/at low level) went through college and is working up the corporate ladder. The fighter gets some nice pecs as the years go by/levels go up, but the wizard has a nice upper-middle class home, a home theater system, seven HD plasma screens, personal wine cellar stocked with year 1750 vintages, three Lexus's, a hot maid, a hotter trophy wife, and to rub it in the low-life thug fighter's face, he hires a professional personal trainer (polymorph), along with all the fighter's old buddies to clean his solid gold toilet (summon monster/planar binding). The fighter, seeing this, now spends all his time bitching and crying at the injustice of the world on forums with his jealous buddies, while coming up with all sorts of stupid scenarios where the wizard is tied down and naked and all his memorized spell slots along with all his staves and scrolls gone for no reason, while the fighter is wielding an artifact sword, artifact shield, and artifact plate mail, oh and boots of haste and flying with a ring of sequestering and universal energy immunity... because only by tipping the playing field until it's fucking vertical can the 40-year-old has-been jock even hope to look into the eye of the middle-aged poindexter without breaking his neck, who is now swimming in his seven-figure income and fresh, quality pussy threesomes with different $5000/hour call girls and his trophy wife every night and morning.

I really hate my ADHD scatterbrain sometimes. Anyway, back on topic AGAIN.

Just like what Bethesda did with Oblivion, WotC took all the years of feedback on the biggest (or just the loudest) complaints, and went through and hammered down the kinks so one character isn't going to completely trump everyone else at everything they do.

Result? Everyone hated it.

Maybe it's because both of them arguably went too far and made shit bland. Yes, fighters needed nice things, but the redistribution of wealth power was not the way to go about it!

I will once again cite my burning hatred for the trolleplayers who haughtily condescend the unwashed heathen powergamers for not playing Dungeons & Dragons the "right way." I'm just going to make every single one of my characters from now on completely emotionless warforged just to spite those whiny fucks. Just like I shout "Get 'r' dun!" and "Dee-dee-dee!" and "Anatatachi wa sukoshi kawaii desu ze!" to every intolerant Type A stuck in a high-schooler's mindset that I come across, while wearing a Justin Bieber/Twilight tee and tight girl pants covered in rainbow-stitched "Gay Fur Pride!", "I Love Anime!", and "Asian Girls Rule!". The fact that I look like an absolute asshat pales in comparison to the smug knowledge that I'm indirectly putting those shits into early graves via eventual heart attack. The world population needs thinning, so why not start with them?



I like how the malconvoker's defender keep citing all the widely-accepted overpowered bullshit that no DM with brains or balls would let fly.  How very convenient that no one invokes Practical Optimization in the middle of these neuron-genocide mundane vs. magic debates. Brilliant. :clap Absolutely fucking brilliant.
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~

That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

Gnorman

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2011, 09:19:36 PM »
I'm not sure what you just did there but I think you won.

sir_argenon

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2011, 09:31:42 PM »
I'm not sure what you just did there but I think you won.

yeah.. me too.

oslecamo

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2011, 10:08:37 PM »
Just like what Bethesda did with Oblivion, WotC took all the years of feedback on the biggest (or just the loudest) complaints, and went through and hammered down the kinks so one character isn't going to completely trump everyone else at everything they do.
Can't say they were right, but can't say I blame them either. When players were memorizing the PHB, the DMG, the MM, and even the freaking adventure modules, and abusing every single rule they could either... There's an evil satisfaction of simply going crazy with the nerf axe and cuting all the possible rules loopholes they could find untill there's nothing left to possibly abuse anymore.

And for the record they didn't throw necromancers out the window because of "evil". They threw them out the window because it was another minion potential.

Result? Everyone hated it.
Now that's not true. Plenty of people bought 4e, at least enough to keep it running for the last couple years. And I heard several people say it was exactly what they wanted. Because some people indeed don't want to memorize every book, and just want to go trough the dungeon killing stuff and and following a minor plot, instead of figuring ways of starting new industries with their spammable powers.

There are people who like playing that way. 4e was made for them.

Maybe it's because both of them arguably went too far and made shit bland. Yes, fighters needed nice things, but the redistribution of wealth power was not the way to go about it!
Hell yes it is. Wotc went too far in 4e for our tastes, but casters do need some damned reigning in. Because as you and several other posters pointed out, casters not only have plenty of personal power, they can call on pretty much every monster's powers, get them as minions, and curb stomp the monsters with literally their own tricks. So if you put even more power in the equation, you can only end with a black hole centered on the party and the rest of the campaign collapsing around it.


I like how the malconvoker's defender keep citing all the widely-accepted overpowered bullshit that no DM with brains or balls would let fly.  How very convenient that no one invokes Practical Optimization in the middle of these neuron-genocide mundane vs. magic debates. Brilliant. :clap Absolutely fucking brilliant.
See, this that I was talking about just now. You also admit there's caster stuff that simply needs to be reigned in for the game to work.

But as long as people keep saying "Nerf/restrict magic? NEVAH! I demand my absolute ultimate power to do everything at the same time!", then we aren't going anywhere indeed.

Unbeliever

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2011, 10:14:21 PM »
...
Result? Everyone hated it.
Now that's not true. Plenty of people bought 4e, at least enough to keep it running for the last couple years. And I heard several people say it was exactly what they wanted. Because some people indeed don't want to memorize every book, and just want to go trough the dungeon killing stuff and and following a minor plot, instead of figuring ways of starting new industries with their spammable powers.

There are people who like playing that way. 4e was made for them.
How exactly does 4E not involve memorizing huge portions of the rulebook?  Hell, when I played the game I needed nearly the same exact amount of space as I do now just for all my various powers, etc. 

Also, my limited experiences w/ 4E lead me to believe that somehow they didn't magically slay CharOpp.  Although they arguably did spread the love around more.

oslecamo

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2011, 10:28:15 PM »
How exactly does 4E not involve memorizing huge portions of the rulebook?  Hell, when I played the game I needed nearly the same exact amount of space as I do now just for all my various powers, etc. 
Because now you only memorize one rulebook wich indeed contains all your powers, feats and equipment instead of the PHB for your class, DMG for items and world-building rules for abusing, and monster manuals for planar binding/polymorphing/shaphechanging.

Also, my limited experiences w/ 4E lead me to believe that somehow they didn't magically slay CharOpp.  Although they arguably did spread the love around more.

Optimization is still around in 4e yes, but on a much smaller scale. It went from "I conquer the whole universe at 9th level!" to "Hey, I can kill a solo four levels higher than myself! Ok, once per day."

Plus if you're just fighting against the monsters (and not other players), you'll have a much harder time making an innefective character.

Midnight_v

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2011, 10:30:10 PM »
You know... something occured to me...

Quote
Just like what Bethesda did with Oblivion, WotC took all the years of feedback on the biggest (or just the loudest) complaints, and went through and hammered down the kinks so one character isn't going to completely trump everyone else at everything they do.
Result? Everyone hated it.  
 :twitch
Wasn't oblivion one of the higest selling xbox games ever? Loved and loved somemore? I just looked at that analogy and keep thinking whenever I went into gamestop Oblivion is one of 360's "Platinum Hits" or whatever they call it.
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And removed alignment requirements on paladins -- fuck you, 50+ pages of bickering about code of conduct every week!  
Wow... thats the first time anyones managed to really tempt me with 4th editions.

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And neutered alignment itself, making Good and Evil basically irrelevant and optional -- but you still can't be a necromancer because playing with the dead is teh evilz... wait, what?

Nor can you even play teh evilz at all; you're flat-out forbidden by RAW -- fuck you  
Whup! Lost me. That was a Vorpal rant though.  :lmao
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ninjarabbit

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2011, 10:50:21 PM »
You know... something occured to me...

Quote
Just like what Bethesda did with Oblivion, WotC took all the years of feedback on the biggest (or just the loudest) complaints, and went through and hammered down the kinks so one character isn't going to completely trump everyone else at everything they do.
Result? Everyone hated it.  
 :twitch
Wasn't oblivion one of the higest selling xbox games ever? Loved and loved somemore? I just looked at that analogy and keep thinking whenever I went into gamestop Oblivion is one of 360's "Platinum Hits" or whatever they call it.

Not to mention that the Oblivion engine was used for Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas, both ended up being highly selling games too (and Fallout 3 was one of my all time favorite games).

lans

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2011, 11:21:03 PM »
Optimization is still around in 4e yes, but on a much smaller scale. It went from "I conquer the whole universe at 9th level!" to "Hey, I can kill a solo four levels higher than myself! Ok, once per day.".

Their are also things like taking an extended rest in the middle of battle, NI attacks, people that never sleep, getting the parties defenses too high to hit, gattling tripper level of stuff really.
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Unbeliever

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2011, 01:55:40 AM »
How exactly does 4E not involve memorizing huge portions of the rulebook?  Hell, when I played the game I needed nearly the same exact amount of space as I do now just for all my various powers, etc. 
Because now you only memorize one rulebook wich indeed contains all your powers, feats and equipment instead of the PHB for your class, DMG for items and world-building rules for abusing, and monster manuals for planar binding/polymorphing/shaphechanging.
By book do you mean my character sheet?  I have played about maybe ... 10 sessions of 4E.  But, in the course of them I have had abilities scattered over a fair number of places.  It's true that the PHB I held the majority of them, but I'd have a power from 1 book, a feat from a Dragon Magazine (now totally canon), a magic item from another (one of the Aventurer's Vaults), a Paragon Path from yet another (Forgotten Realms book, for example), and so on. 

There are many things one could point to as advantages of 4E, although it's not personally to my taste (tangent:  proto-4E, aka Star Wars Saga Edition is).  But, I find it hard to argue that cutting down on the sources I need to keep track of could ever ever be one of them.  Indeed, every month they are coming out w/ a new, blessed by the designers, sourcebook practically brimming w/ crunch that quite possibly obsoletes your character.  Not to mention the mountain of errata, though I hesitate to call something over 100 pages long mere errata, that the game has accumulated. 

EDIT:  it's fair to say that they solved the problem of keeping track of monster manuals for summoning or shapechaning.  Although if you were someone who hated doing either of those you'd never be forced to.  Those are kind of particular tactics for particular types of characters.  But, I still maintain that 4E is at least as book memorization/crunch heavy as any edition that has come before. 

Bozwevial

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2011, 02:08:17 AM »
Quote
Just like what Bethesda did with Oblivion, WotC took all the years of feedback on the biggest (or just the loudest) complaints, and went through and hammered down the kinks so one character isn't going to completely trump everyone else at everything they do.
Result? Everyone hated it.  
 :twitch
Wasn't oblivion one of the higest selling xbox games ever? Loved and loved somemore? I just looked at that analogy and keep thinking whenever I went into gamestop Oblivion is one of 360's "Platinum Hits" or whatever they call it.
On its own merits, it wasn't bad. In comparison to its predecessor Morrowind, it was a flop. A mediocre storyline, a leveling system that produced inconsistent and bizarre results, a false difficulty curve that you could only beat by micromanaging your every skill increase or by never sleeping, buggy AI, and the notorious horse armor DLC. The only things that were improvements over Morrowind were the combat system and the graphics. Then you have the vocal fanbase complaining loudly about the almost uniform environment, the repetitive interior structures (although Morrowind was an offender here as well), changes to the lore...

Suzerain

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2011, 03:06:48 AM »
Quote
Just like what Bethesda did with Oblivion, WotC took all the years of feedback on the biggest (or just the loudest) complaints, and went through and hammered down the kinks so one character isn't going to completely trump everyone else at everything they do.
Result? Everyone hated it.  
 :twitch
Wasn't oblivion one of the higest selling xbox games ever? Loved and loved somemore? I just looked at that analogy and keep thinking whenever I went into gamestop Oblivion is one of 360's "Platinum Hits" or whatever they call it.
On its own merits, it wasn't bad. In comparison to its predecessor Morrowind, it was a flop. A mediocre storyline, a leveling system that produced inconsistent and bizarre results, a false difficulty curve that you could only beat by micromanaging your every skill increase or by never sleeping, buggy AI, and the notorious horse armor DLC. The only things that were improvements over Morrowind were the combat system and the graphics. Then you have the vocal fanbase complaining loudly about the almost uniform environment, the repetitive interior structures (although Morrowind was an offender here as well), changes to the lore...

I know people used to take payment in foo around here but...



I realised too late I was ranting, and off-topic, so the rest is spoilered.

[spoiler]Anyway, a lot of truth, truth, truth. The micromanaging was with us since Morrowind though (if you didn't get all your attributes up to 100 by the time your skills are maxed...). The power curve was something which personally irked me the most. If you need broken items just to kill a goblin warlord and his shaman friend, then something's wrong.

And the landscape, the people, the culture was sooo "uniform", yes, for lack of a better word. Boring. Undiversified. Morrowind was full of strange monsters and people who thought you were the strangest of all.

And while the main quest did suck a lot worse than Morrowind's, mostly due to all the "gates" you had to "close", the side quests were always what made an Elderscrolls game. There were some very lovely ones in Oblivion: The one where you jump into a painting and end up in a painted world and all of the assassin guild's quests.

And while horses are nice... what people specifically asked for was mounted combat, not horsies per se. And while the new fast travel system is less tedious for some, it's also less real and takes away tons of options (they gutted all teleportation spells, for example). Plus, they took away levitation... And I hated that a lot of quests could not be solved if you turned off the magic compass thingy that shows you exactly where to go...

You'll have to explain what you mean with the leveling system and inconsistent results though. Not all skills/attributes are created equal? I've always taken the skills I thought most useful to a character (one weapon skill, at least 1-2 magic skills, stealth and 'security', other stuff). In any case, I didn't think the leveling system itself to be too different from Morrowind's.[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: What can a Warblade offer that a Malconvoker's summonling can't?
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2011, 04:00:42 AM »
Response spoilered for off-topic. If this continues, we should probably move it to the video game thread.
[spoiler]
Anyway, a lot of truth, truth, truth. The micromanaging was with us since Morrowind though (if you didn't get all your attributes up to 100 by the time your skills are maxed...). The power curve was something which personally irked me the most. If you need broken items just to kill a goblin warlord and his shaman friend, then something's wrong.
Fair enough, although Morrowind was slightly better in that it permitted you to train as much as you wanted per level, so it was at least easier to powerlevel your attributes to maximum (or abuse corprus). But yes, something's not quite right if the lich you summoned with a master-level Conjuration spell just got one-shotted by a bandit.

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And the landscape, the people, the culture was sooo "uniform", yes, for lack of a better word. Boring. Undiversified. Morrowind was full of strange monsters and people who thought you were the strangest of all.
Well, I was referring to the endless countryside and/or the copy-pasted Ayleid ruins and caves, but I can see what you mean there. Dunmer culture was incredibly alien--the silt striders were a nice touch. In Cyrodiil, the only differences between the various cities are a few minor changes in architecture and the guard uniforms.

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And while the main quest did suck a lot worse than Morrowind's, mostly due to all the "gates" you had to "close", the side quests were always what made an Elderscrolls game. There were some very lovely ones in Oblivion: The one where you jump into a painting and end up in a painted world and all of the assassin guild's quests.
Quite true, although the Dark Brotherhood has one particularly annoying bit where the quest journal is updated before you read Lachance's letter--apparently your stay in prison has given you the deductive skills of Batman. That, and it's odd how you can waltz into the Mage's Guild as a Fighting Man and become the Archmage in short order, but whatever, maybe they need to fill a quota.

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And while horses are nice... what people specifically asked for was mounted combat, not horsies per se. And while the new fast travel system is less tedious for some, it's also less real and takes away tons of options (they gutted all teleportation spells, for example). Plus, they took away levitation... And I hated that a lot of quests could not be solved if you turned off the magic compass thingy that shows you exactly where to go...
Bethesda's response to the mounted combat issue was to release horse armor later, which went over about as well as you'd expect. (As a later April Fool's Day prank, they cut the prices of everything in the store except for the horse armor pack, which was doubled in price. I don't have a problem with fast travel (after a while in Morrowind you could get around almost as quickly with guild guides, boats, and striders), though I do with having the major cities marked already. Teleportation would be nice, though. I can see why they would take out levitation--cities are separate cells now (which makes sense, given their complexity). Quest compass...well, that's a bit of a mixed bag. It takes all the fun out of following the directions, although half the time Morrowind would give you vague, unhelpful directions anyway.

Quote
You'll have to explain what you mean with the leveling system and inconsistent results though. Not all skills/attributes are created equal? I've always taken the skills I thought most useful to a character (one weapon skill, at least 1-2 magic skills, stealth and 'security', other stuff). In any case, I didn't think the leveling system itself to be too different from Morrowind's.
Well, they really aren't. Oblivion tends to reward player skill more than character skill, which is why Security doesn't matter at all. (While this is good for combat, because Morrowind was frustrating when you were trying to hit something, it's bad for making other skills worthwhile.) Someone who knows how to play the lockpicking game can open a Very Hard lock without dropping a tumbler with a Security of 10. Likewise, Personality isn't worth raising to 100 since Speechcraft and can get you to a good point without much trouble. (Fun fact: Speechcraft's master-level perk halves the cost of bribes--attaining perfect mastery of the skill makes it less expensive to pay your way past actually using the skill.) Even then, a 100-point Charm spell for one second on Touch can be cast by a novice in Illusion, making them completely obsolete.

As for the leveling system, when every NPC in the game levels with you and Bethesda went overboard trying to make sure they'd stay challenging, only the most micromanaged characters with +5/+5/+5 or +5/+5/+1 level-ups measure up. It's noticeable even if your difficulty slider is in the middle. In Morrowind, the best way to become more powerful was to level up. In Oblivion, the opposite is true. Lots of people just never sleep or pick skills they never use as their major skills so they can control the pace. Bethesda is reportedly doing away with the major skills=levels mechanic for Skyrim, which I see as a sensible move. After all, why would a bandit wearing daedric armor bother holding up travelers for a paltry amount of gold when he could sell his helmet and retire comfortably?[/spoiler]