Author Topic: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?  (Read 5499 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« on: January 17, 2011, 02:02:03 AM »
Intro
Clerics, Druids, and Wizards present so much individual power it's a wonder why they, eventually, stay around the prime material, or their plane of origin.  (Archivists, Artificers, Psions, Wilders, and some other full casters are in this category too.)

What This Post Is Not
There comes a point where a character could become party-independent by covering the roles himself or/and with his minions.  I can easily imagine such a scenario.

Specifically, What This Post Is
At what point is a character so self-sufficient that it no longer needs a society?

For example, it doesn't need to trade because it has or can readily produce anything it needs.

Level 9 Wizard Example
Consider a Wizard.  At level 9, he can teleport.  He can dominate Humanoids he likes.  He can bug the gods with contact other plane.  He can scry on anyone who hasn't blocked him.  He can get Nightmares via lesser planar binding to cast astral projection, rendering him effectively immortal.  He may have a loyal undead legion via animate dead.  He probably has more spell preps than he'll use in a day.

The standard answers of why said Wizard hasn't taken over is because "There's a bigger fish"  or "It isn't fun to play" or "It isn't party-friendly."

Well, yeah.  By this point, the most logical reason someone is loyal to this plane is because it's rich in resources, or it's easily to conquer, or it's already yours.

If you go with the notion, "There's a bigger fish!" then that being would need to be more powerful.  Logically, how would anyone rise to such a position of power if creatures are paying very careful attention to would-be rivals?

Regarding fun and party-friendliness, this could easily be an NPC.  It probably already is.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Amechra

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2328
  • Thread Necromancy a Specialty
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2011, 03:12:33 AM »
Well, based on needing things, a 3rd (iirc) level Elan or Warforged with Vow of Poverty don't need to eat or drink (in the warforged's case, add a lack of a need to sleep or breath.), and they are immune to the weather. Hell, an elf w/ VoP will, after a certain point, no longer need to eat, sleep, or drink. All these characters lose the need to breath at higher levels.

Therefor, they no longer need to be part of a society; they might stay in one because they enjoy the companionship, but they could just as easily just walk into the wilds and stay there for years on end; especially the Warforged and the Elan, since they are immortal. In fact, the Warforged and the Elan could litterally spend centuries without speaking to another being.

All their needs are taken care of by their Vow.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2011, 03:30:24 AM »
Warforged Cleric with the Blackwater domain.

You are now a robot who walks from one continent to another without any real concerns.

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2011, 04:08:07 AM »
Anyone capable of casting Rope Trick and equipped with a Ring of Sustenance or Eternal Rations is pretty independent.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

oslecamo

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2011, 08:23:37 AM »
The standard answers of why said Wizard hasn't taken over is because "There's a bigger fish"  or "It isn't fun to play" or "It isn't party-friendly."
You forgot one main reason here "What fun would it be to take over?". So you scry and die all the kings and unite the world under your command. Congratulations, now you have to take care of all the boring bureaucracies that come with the job of governing the world. You'll spend every moment of your existence checking for taxes, squasing rebellions, making sure your subordinates aren't trying to backstab you, taking care of the more recent natural disaster, ect, ect.  You also just made yourself a big target as well, in particular for other powerfull wizards visiting your plane.

Well, yeah.  By this point, the most logical reason someone is loyal to this plane is because it's rich in resources, or it's easily to conquer, or it's already yours.
So, what hapened to actual loyalty? Liking that plane because it's the place where you grew up and where your family and friends reside? What hapened to champions of good that protect the weaker whitout expecting much in return?

If you go with the notion, "There's a bigger fish!" then that being would need to be more powerful.  Logically, how would anyone rise to such a position of power if creatures are paying very careful attention to would-be rivals?
Because there's millions if not more other beings in the world, and the wizard can't really hope to use divinations on them all every day. Specially if you conquered the world, the sheer number of people looking to take your head you would simply jam your divinations.

You could also destroy the world, but then what? You're left alone with your mindless minions for all eternity? That doesn't sound exactly fun.

There's also the gods themselves not to mention countless outsider organizations, so if you take over a plane you'll be eventually atracting an attack from angels/demons/devils/inevitables/champions from other planes. It just looks to me like a lot more trouble than it's really worth.


carnivore

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1671
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2011, 08:45:15 AM »
theres always someone stronger ... always

it becomes harder to know who the truely powerful are .... since Mindblank exists, those who are capable of using it tend to apply it everyday they are able to


usually when they are able to cast 9th lvl Spells or Manifest 9th lvl Powers .... they dont need too much outside help

also if a character does not need a Society .... why would they want to take one over? what could it provide that they need? except headaches .... better to let them do what they want as long as it does not interfere with your goals. better to just stay out of the public eye in peaceful annonymity while you continue to build power and dont piss-off those who are stronger than you are

 :D

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2011, 09:16:07 AM »
Well he needs paper so he will never really be independant :)
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Rebel7284

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2011, 09:36:37 AM »
Well he needs paper so he will never really be independant :)

True creation? Fabricate?
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 12:57:28 PM »
Well he needs paper so he will never really be independant :)

True creation? Fabricate?
Polymorph Any Object.
I'm fairly sure with enough casts you can reach anything.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 01:37:38 PM »
Well he needs paper so he will never really be independant :)

True creation? Fabricate?
Polymorph Any Object.
I'm fairly sure with enough casts you can reach anything.
The Majin Buu method. So you want to build a house? Who needs bricks when you have innocent bystanders?
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

betrayor

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 522
    • Email
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 01:43:18 PM »
And then Genesis,casted enough times so it would be big enough......
Then you put trees and rivers and animals in there.....
Finally you bring in a male and female and a snake and wait to see what happens.....
If they misbehave you cast them out.....
Talking about playing god on another level.....

Amadi

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
    • Email
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2011, 02:20:09 PM »
The standard answers of why said Wizard hasn't taken over is because "There's a bigger fish"  or "It isn't fun to play" or "It isn't party-friendly."
You forgot one main reason here "What fun would it be to take over?". So you scry and die all the kings and unite the world under your command. Congratulations, now you have to take care of all the boring bureaucracies that come with the job of governing the world. You'll spend every moment of your existence checking for taxes, squasing rebellions, making sure your subordinates aren't trying to backstab you, taking care of the more recent natural disaster, ect, ect.  You also just made yourself a big target as well, in particular for other powerfull wizards visiting your plane.

Your subordinates are undead that you control. They cannot backstab you. From all that power, you get a divine rank, so you can scry at will at lulz, and are pretty much impossible to surprise. The only thing? The other wizards, which is just "There's a bigger fish"

Well, yeah.  By this point, the most logical reason someone is loyal to this plane is because it's rich in resources, or it's easily to conquer, or it's already yours.
So, what hapened to actual loyalty? Liking that plane because it's the place where you grew up and where your family and friends reside? What hapened to champions of good that protect the weaker whitout expecting much in return?

That's a teenager's fantasy, there is no real love. All human actions are based on selfishness. "Good" is only a synonym for finding a common cause with someone, in which case acting towards that cause generates happiness for both. Of course, as a wizard who can take over the world, you wouldn't care. I'm not a cynical pessimist, here. It has been demonstrated in studies that people always take the choice which they believe generates the most endorphin. People are selfish.

If you go with the notion, "There's a bigger fish!" then that being would need to be more powerful.  Logically, how would anyone rise to such a position of power if creatures are paying very careful attention to would-be rivals?
Because there's millions if not more other beings in the world, and the wizard can't really hope to use divinations on them all every day. Specially if you conquered the world, the sheer number of people looking to take your head you would simply jam your divinations.

"Remote Sensing
You could also destroy the world, but then what? You're left alone with your mindless minions for all eternity? That doesn't sound exactly fun.

... Mindless? Either way, why destroy it. Remake it in your own image.

There's also the gods themselves not to mention countless outsider organizations, so if you take over a plane you'll be eventually atracting an attack from angels/demons/devils/inevitables/champions from other planes. It just looks to me like a lot more trouble than it's really worth.

Again, "Bigger Fish".

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2011, 03:53:19 PM »

Your subordinates are undead that you control. They cannot backstab you. From all that power, you get a divine rank,
How?
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2011, 04:24:29 PM »
How?
Dieties and Demigods states that Divine Ranks are gained by being worshiped. If you go full retard with your interpretation, anyone with cohorts and followers gains Divine Ranks.

betrayor

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 522
    • Email
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2011, 04:29:08 PM »
How?
Dieties and Demigods states that Divine Ranks are gained by being worshiped. If you go full retard with your interpretation, anyone with cohorts and followers gains Divine Ranks.

Actually it does not state that.....
Can you quote a page?
I don't think that D&Dg said that you gain divine ranks just by being worshipped...

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2011, 04:37:31 PM »
How?
Dieties and Demigods states that Divine Ranks are gained by being worshiped. If you go full retard with your interpretation, anyone with cohorts and followers gains Divine Ranks.

Actually it does not state that.....
Can you quote a page?
I don't think that D&Dg said that you gain divine ranks just by being worshipped...

Nah, it hints at it multiple times, but it never states any rules for it.

So far the only way of gaining a divine rank that I now off is the Pun-Pun Nut-Pun method.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

betrayor

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 522
    • Email
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2011, 04:45:15 PM »
How?
Dieties and Demigods states that Divine Ranks are gained by being worshiped. If you go full retard with your interpretation, anyone with cohorts and followers gains Divine Ranks.

Actually it does not state that.....
Can you quote a page?
I don't think that D&Dg said that you gain divine ranks just by being worshipped...

Nah, it hints at it multiple times, but it never states any rules for it.

So far the only way of gaining a divine rank that I now off is the Pun-Pun Nut-Pun method.

Well you can gain divine rank 0 if you are a True dragon and take 12 levels of dragon ascendant.....
Also you can convince(diplomancer) a deity to give you one divine rank.....

oslecamo

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2011, 05:14:26 PM »
How?
Dieties and Demigods states that Divine Ranks are gained by being worshiped. If you go full retard with your interpretation, anyone with cohorts and followers gains Divine Ranks.

Actually it does not state that.....
Can you quote a page?
I don't think that D&Dg said that you gain divine ranks just by being worshipped...

Nah, it hints at it multiple times, but it never states any rules for it.

Indeed, besides one or other prc that gives divine rank 0, there's no hard rules for becoming a god. And even if just being worshiped gave you divine ranks, then every king and warlord out there will have divine ranks of their own, making them that much harder to conquer under your magic boot! :p

archangel.arcanis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
    • Email
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2011, 05:24:06 PM »
It presents being worshiped as one of the ways to get Divine rank but clearly states ask the DM how it works in their world.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Amadi

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
    • Email
Re: When do you say a character is too independent for a world?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2011, 07:04:31 PM »
Immortals Handbook, if you accept d20, would allow for RAW ways to get a divine rank. It's not even that hard, either. And you know, when you count the chances that a character gets to level 9, I would not be surprised if most people of level 14 had at least hero-deity status. According to that book, any intelligent outsider between 16-20 HD has hero-deity rank, I.E: Divine Rank 0.

It is also merely 1990 spellcraft DC epic spell to become a hero-deity through magic alone. Of course, killing 20 balors (alone) also does that and is a lot easier.