Author Topic: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.  (Read 2577 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tonymitsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« on: January 09, 2011, 07:18:40 PM »
I'm participating in a low to moderate level gestalt game with a few odd restrictions and rules.  The first character I made was just killed in session 2 so I'm trying to work on a few things for a replacement.

-All materials are assumed to be available, except 3rd party, though pretty much everything is subject to DM approval (thus truly shifty tricks and some Dragon Magazine material are unlikely to slide)
-Standard character WPL
-Characters must be good-aligned
-Current starting level is 2 Current starting level is now 3, and we are (still) unlikely to advance much past level 14 or 15, if we even make it that far.  All HD at character creation are maxed.
-If you have a level offset, it applies only to one side of the build
-No flaws, retraining is allowed every level, partial saves and BAB are optional, some fluff is mutable.

-For stats we have three options:
  • the elite array (ugh...)
  • 28 point (/facepalm)
  • Use the DM's roll method, which is 4d6, drop the lowest die, reroll 1's.  The catch is that stats are rolled in order (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha), and at the end you are allowed to switch any two stats once.  Two sets are rolled, one by the player and one by the DM.  Everyone else but me seems to be thrilled with this method (especially the guy that ended up with a 71 point buy).
There are also restrictions on what is allowed when gestalting classes as well:
-The short version is that you are not allowed to two of the "same kind of class on both sides of the character".  Now what the DM defines as "same" seems to be pretty loose and whimsical.  For instance, sorcerer 20//wizard 20 would not be allowed, even though they cast off two different stats, they are both "arcane casters", and scout 20//rogue 20 would also not be allowed as they are both "skill monkeys".
Also, what the DM defines as "dual progression" prestige classes are allowed, but only if you give up the half of class that progresses the other side of your build.  For example, one player is currently a warlock//cleric and will eventually go into Eldritch Theurge on his cleric side for the class abilities, but is only allowed to progress cleric casting with it, since he will maintain warlock invocations by advancing warlock.  This restriction applies to gish concepts and classes as well, so if you want to take something like Abjurant Champion, you must have, on the other side of the build, either a full BAB class or a something that grants caster level progression (so you don't gain the benefit of both full bab and full caster progression, in addition to getting something else with the class on the other side).  I guess this rule is to prevent double-dipping but still allow access to the class features, but it sure makes for headaches.

In the same vein, what the DM considers "dual progression feats" are not allowed either unless you can still follow the "no double-dipping" rule.  This includes things like Swift Hunter, Daring Outlaw, Tashalatora, etc.

This is what is causing me to keep banging my head against the wall, especially coupled with the fact that I'm not very good at optimizing low levels.
Given the nature of the roll method, I've been trying to plan builds that largely key off one stat, like my first character, a Warblade//Factotum, so I'll have something to do regardless of what I roll.  Also considering something that will work even with 28 point buy (like a wizard).  Given the nature of the campaign I'm trying to find things that provide immediate benefit, even if they'd be terrible at higher levels.

There are a couple of things I was tossing around.

-Monk//Psionics
This was my first thought, keying off either wisdom or intelligence with Carmendine Monk/Ascetic Psion.  Since the overall goal would be punching things I was planning something like Monk 6/Fist of the Forest, with a possible dip to Shiba Protector, with Intuitive Attack to get Wis to attack twice, with something like Psychic Warror 6/Warshaper X or Illithid Slayer to help fix BAB.  Vow of Poverty, and an attempt to nab the Saint template might work too, since we'll probably end at or before the levels VoP starts to suck really suck.

-Binder//anything
This was honestly my first choice, before the Warblade//Factotum, but I put it aside when the DM said we had to be good alignment.  Assuming I can get him to waive that requirement, my plan was Binder 20 up one side, and Sorcerer/Anima Mage on the other.  In hindsight though I honestly don't know what I would build for.  The free metamagic made buffing attractive perhaps, or maybe battlefield control.

-Crusader 20//Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator X
Obviously I'd give up the maneuver progression from RKV to make this work, I wouldn't get 9th level spells but... shoot, given the projected campaign length, nobody else will either.  Would probably be a tripping build, using a glaive, trading the domain for Knowledge Devotion, with the Holy Warrior reserve feat and maybe Stormguard Warrior to put some more umph into his attacks when there's nothing to trip.

-Wizard 6/Swiftblade X//Scout X/Unseen Seer X
I've been wanting to try a swiftblade for a long time, but I could never find the right mix of abilities to make it work how I wanted it to.  The general thought here was to make use of Bounding Assault with a 2h weapon, take Spontaneous Divination for the Wizard and use the advanced learning from Unseen Seer to nab the Grave Strike and Vine Strike spells to use precision damage on normally immune targets.  
Originally I also toyed with the idea of instead using Swashbuckler to get Int to damage and then Daring Outlaw for sneak attack, but that will probably be disallowed in this game.


In the end... I really don't know.  What would you do given these rules and circumstances?

EDIT:  clearly I was drunk when I did my first draft of this...  :rollseyes
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 07:16:52 PM by Tonymitsu »

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 07:47:33 PM »
You know, there are Good Binders out there. Just not Anima Mages.

If I were in your shoes, I'd play a Binder and some nice classes on the other side, but that's mostly just because my favorite Gestalt build ever looks something like:

Binder 15/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5//Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Cleric 1/X 1/Chameleon 10/Warblade 2/Swordsage 2

On the other hand, that build really doesn't benefit from only a 28 pts buy.

I'd say something as rather simple as Druid//Swordsage would work. Points into WIS and CON.
All the goodies from the Druid, with the WIS to AC and maneuvers from the Swordsage, Swordsage gives 6+int skills and good Ref.
I've stated up the maneuver progression for a Druid//Swordsage up to level 8 for a homebrew campaign that looks like this:
[spoiler]Maneuvers:
lvl 1: 7
Burning Blade
Wind Stride
Clinging Shadow Strike   --> Obscuring Shadow Veil (4th)
Counter Charge
Shadow Blade Technique   --> Shadow Garrote
Charging Minotaur
Stone Bones   ->   Mountain Hammer (2nd)

lvl 2:
Fire Riposte
Shadow Jaunt

lvl 3:
Fan the Flames
Zephyr Dance

lvl 4:
Searing Blade
Searing Charge

Readied:8 (if you take the Extra Readied Maneuver Feat, otherwise 7)
Burning Blade
Searing Blade
Wind Stride
Counter Charge
Fire Riposte
Fan the Flames
Obscuring Shadow Veil
Zephyr Dance

Shadow Garrote
Searing Charge
Charging Minotaur
Shadow Jaunt
Mountain Hammer

Stances:
Step of the Wind
Child of Shadows
Level 3 stance[/spoiler]

Remember, you can initiate strikes and boosts while Wild Shaped.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Tonymitsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 08:09:20 PM »
You know, there are Good Binders out there. Just not Anima Mages.

If I were in your shoes, I'd play a Binder and some nice classes on the other side, but that's mostly just because my favorite Gestalt build ever looks something like:

Binder 15/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5//Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Cleric 1/X 1/Chameleon 10/Warblade 2/Swordsage 2

On the other hand, that build really doesn't benefit from only a 28 pts buy.

True but I could always use the DM's roll method and toss the dice... literally.
That kind of a build sounds very complicated though.  What's the general focus?  Admittedly I don't have much experience with binders, even after reading the class, vestiges, and binder handbook in full.


Quote
I'd say something as rather simple as Druid//Swordsage would work. Points into WIS and CON.

Well, yes this is always true.  And while I was irritated to be the first one to die, on session 2 no less, I don't think I quite need to go there just yet.  Of course if the second character dies...  :devil

vilenatas

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
    • Email
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 08:34:23 PM »
Ranger3/Paladin2/Barbarian1/Warblade9//Cloistered Cleric3/Swordsage2/Chameleon10

Use the serenity feat to tie your saves and turning to wisdom so you have wis to ac in light armor, to saves and for turning for DMM persistent.

Ikeren

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 224
    • Email
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2011, 08:46:14 PM »
Is rolling before the session an option using an online roller that your DM has access to? Then you could post stat options better and we could help more.

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2011, 08:50:01 PM »
The Binder build does whatever role it feels like doing. Binders are a very versatile class in themselves, so I just added more useful stuff on the other side, such as skill points, re-rolls, sneak damage, maneuvers, spells, more skill points, bonus feats etc.

Rogue for skills, sneak, evasion, ref save.
Fighter for feats and ACF's.
Cleric for domains and spell list (mostly for wand use), also I think it's a more natural entry into the divine magic of the Chameleon class, to be able to say that you're pious enough to gain spells and aren't considered "all play and no work"
Chameleon for pure versatility, spells and Ability boosts.
Warblade for Iron Heart Surge, Focus, that maneuver that re-roll a miss and whatever else you feel like.
Swordsage for skill points, ref save and maneuvers (shadow jaunt for example).
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Novabomb

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2011, 10:36:54 PM »
Personally I would take the DM's method of rolling, and then decide on what to make after seeing the stats.
Those who fear darkness, have never seen what light can  do.

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2011, 11:40:35 PM »
Use the DM's rolling system (it will produce results much higher than 28 point buy). And see what stats you get?

If you get a decent strength, con, and cha, play a warblade/bard
If you get a good con and int, play a wizard.
If you get good stats in everything, play a cleric.
If you get bad stats in everything, throw the best into wisdom and go with a druid.

Then just mix and match those as needed.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Tonymitsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 08:16:50 PM »
Rolled some stats today.
Wasn't awful, but not terribly pretty either:

Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con:  13
Int:  14
Wis:  15
Cha:  12

Now I'm allowed to switch any two stats.

Aside from swapping Con for Str, and making a... passable druid/swordsage, I got nothin'  :(

Rebel7284

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 08:51:28 PM »
Rolled some stats today.
Wasn't awful, but not terribly pretty either:

Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con:  13
Int:  14
Wis:  15
Cha:  12

Now I'm allowed to switch any two stats.

Aside from swapping Con for Str, and making a... passable druid/swordsage, I got nothin'  :(

Those stats are not horrible if you take a nice race to shift them around.

For example, for an amazing tank:
Swap Wis and Con
Human Mineral Warrior
LA 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 1 // Crusader 2

Replace Human with Goliath or add Feral template for even more Con/Str goodness.

Other race combos to keep in mind:
Primordial Half Giants for +4 Int, +4 Cha for any arcane caster.
Dragonborn almost anything for a boost to that Con especially if you need the 16 elsewhere.
Phrenic to effectively dual class with psion.
Half Minotaur from dragon (houseruled to NOT add the side increase bonuses for sanity)
Draconic creature for natural attacks and bonuses to 3 stats.

Note that both Half Minotaur and Feral add Wisdom.  Codzilla for the win!
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 09:12:25 PM »
Well, if you can get it approved, make whatever race you end up with an ice-dweller (dragon 306).  LA+0, +2 con -2 cha.

Consider looking at a lesser planetouched race - they've got some nice abilities and no LA.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Hallack

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2011, 10:02:09 AM »
For some real staying power perhaps a Dread Necromancer//Crusader with Tomb Tainted Soul?
Placeholder - T'tosc

Tonymitsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2011, 09:13:33 PM »
EDIT:  New starting level.  noted up at the top.

For some real staying power perhaps a Dread Necromancer//Crusader with Tomb Tainted Soul?

Have to be good aligned.


Other race combos to keep in mind:
Primordial Half Giants for +4 Int, +4 Cha for any arcane caster.
Dragonborn almost anything for a boost to that Con especially if you need the 16 elsewhere.
Phrenic to effectively dual class with psion.
Half Minotaur from dragon (houseruled to NOT add the side increase bonuses for sanity)
Draconic creature for natural attacks and bonuses to 3 stats.

That primordial template is pretty ridiculous.  I'm assuming half-giant from XPH?
so something like... Primordial Half-giant Warblade 2//Telepath 3  would have stats like:
Str:  14
Dex:  10
Con:  13
Int:  18
Wis:  15
Cha:  16
(I like tome of battle classes.  they make melee combat bearable.)

I could probably swap Wis and Con as well to make living a little easier.
Feats:  (1st) Psicrystal Affinity (Nimble), (Bonus) Expanded Knowledge (Expansion), (3rd) Psionic Meditation
Maneuvers:  Punishing Stance, Douse the Flames, Stone Bones, Moment of the Perfect Mind (probably not necessary since I'd have good will from Psion)

Can you apply the phrenic template to that?  The definition of psionic subtype seems to imply no.
Adding Dragonborn to get more Con could be an option I guess.  plus I'd get wings.  But negative Dex mod would suck.


« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 09:22:26 PM by Tonymitsu »

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2011, 09:20:27 PM »
Lesser mechanatrix can get you staying power, since you heal electricity damage.

Just have some way of getting electricity damage at will, like meldshaping (for the lightning gauntlets soulmeld).
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Bloody Initiate

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
    • Email
Re: Low to moderate gestalt game with odd rules.
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2011, 10:10:31 PM »
I've been wanting to create a Binder/Incarnum gestalt since I first played gestalt, but my first thought was Totemist which as I recall was quite MAD (I could be remembering wrong, and I'm obviously too lazy to think too much). However a Binder/Incarnate would be insanely flexible, dramatically changing their party role day-to-day if they so chose, which was what appealed to me about Binder + Incarnum. Since the vestiges tend to lean you toward a role but assist you unpredictably in fulfilling it, when I first read MoI I immediately though "THIS is what the Binder needs!"

A few high-tier classes can switch their role often, but most of them can't switch their eq. Incarnum allows you to use new equipment every day.
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.