D&D 4B: A Lighter d20 System

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Okay, so I was thinking: what if you used the format of skill challenges to turn D&D into a more rules-light game?  And the more I thought the more I realized that it actually might work.  So I based the idea around the Elder Scrolls series, and threw in some elements from True20 and, of all things, 7th Sea.

The Basic Idea

The basic mechanic remains the same: d20+modifiers, and compare to the result.  However, the main difference between this system and D&D 4E is that this is the only roll you'll ever make.


How This Works

Everything you do in this game is a skill challenge.  Whether it's beating up an ogre, stealing a purse, casting a spell or negotiating with the king, you'll be rolling skill checks against set DCs.  Everything is a skill in this system, with two exceptions: abilities and feats.


Abilities

Abilities work in a similar fashion to True20.  There are six abilities: Strength, Charisma, Dexterity, Wisdom, Constitution, and Intelligence.  These abilities can range from -5 to infinitely high.  Allcharacters start with these attributes at 0; players then spend points to improve these abilities up to a maximum of +4 each at character creation.  (Racial modifiers can improve this past +4 at creation.)


Feats

Feats are abilities that a character gains over time.  There are two kinds of feats: passive and active.  Passive feats give a character a bonus to an ability or skill; active feats give new uses for abilities and skills.  A character gains one feat at every odd level, including one at first level.


Skills

Skills are things your character is good at.  Whenever you do something in the game, your character uses a skill.  Your skills are calculated by adding the skill's associated ability to your Trained bonus or Untrained penalty; you may also get bonuses from passive feats.  At each even level, starting at second, you also get an additional +1 to all of your skills.

Some skills can only be used if trained.  At first level, pick a number of skills equal to three plus your Intelligence score; these skills are trained for you.  Skills you are trained with receive a +5 bonus; skills you are untrained with take a -5 penalty.

A special rule applies to the skills Knowledge, Perform, Craft, and Profession.  When you become trained with these skills, pick a number of "categories" equal to your Intelligence score; these are usages of these skills that you're familiar with.  (You're always familiar with at least one category, even if your Intelligence score is 0.)  For instance, for Knowledge you might take "magic" or dragons; for Profession you might take "innkeeper" or "lawyer."

Another special rule involves the Perception and Insight scores.  Take the scores of those skills and add 10: this equals your Passive Perception and Insight, respectively.  When the DM doesn't want ot give away information by calling for a Perception or Insight roll, he'll compare your passive scores to the DC of noticing something and will let you know if your character notices anything.

Finally, when using a skill you may add any number of Raises.  A Raise adds +5 to the DC of your check, but allows you to do something over and beyond what a success would allow.

The list of skills, grouped by the associated ability, follows.

[spoiler]Strength
Melee
Block
Athletics


Dexterity
Ranged
Thievery (trained only)
Stealth
Acrobatics

 
Constitution
Endurance
Heavy Armor (trained only)
Light Armor


Intelligence
Arcane (trained only)
Knowledge (trained only)
Profession (trained only)
Craft (trained only)


Wisdom
Divine (trained only)
Perception
Insight
Ettiquette


Charisma
Diplomacy
Intimidate
Bluff
Perform (trained only)[/spoiler]

(More to come, mostly about what raises do.)

----------

So... what does everyone think?

[yellerSumner]

Some skills can only be used if trained.  At first level, pick a number of skills equal to three plus your Intelligence score; these skills are trained for you.  Skills you are trained with receive a +5 bonus; skills you are untrained with take a -5 penalty.

A special rule applies to the skills Knowledge, Perform, Craft, and Profession.  When you become trained with these skills, pick a number of "categories" equal to your Intelligence score; these are usages of these skills that you're familiar with.  (You're always familiar with at least one category, even if your Intelligence score is 0.)  For instance, for Knowledge you might take "magic" or dragons; for Profession you might take "innkeeper" or "lawyer."

I don't like INT being more important than other scores.

Abilities

Abilities work in a similar fashion to True20.  There are six abilities: Strength, Charisma, Dexterity, Wisdom, Constitution, and Intelligence.  These abilities can range from -5 to infinitely high.  Allcharacters start with these attributes at 0; players then spend points to improve these abilities up to a maximum of +4 each at character creation.  (Racial modifiers can improve this past +4 at creation.)

You could simplify it even more by adding 5 to all DCs and up the range for abilities to 0 to +9 at character creation.  (Or, at least that's what my morning brain is telling me.  It's not fully functional, so it may be wrong.  It could even be very wrong.)



Would adding a skill to Strength and Con be possible?  (Granted, even though 4 looks pretty, adding any variant 'magic' systems like psionics would end up unevening things again.)

I'm interested in the Armor skills.  Are they active or passive and it wasn't mentioned?

I look forward to seeing more.

[Skara Brae]

I don't know if you've seen Microlite20 yet, but it might be worth perusing for some ideas.  You could also translate this to Fudge real easily.

I like the basic idea you propose in your post here, but I have no experience with True20, so the references to it mean nothing to me.

[Kuroimaken]

Hmmm, I like this system. The idea of selecting a number of cathegories for Knowledge based off your Int score and a number of Performs based off your Charisma is something we've used in our group to good effect.

However, yellersummer has a point -- this system REALLY shafts the stupid. The lowdown is that in order to be really effective, a Fighter-type would need an Int score of at least 12. While the idea is to make a rules-light system, I have another suggestion to make.

Typically, people focus on what they are more apt at. If that something is combat, they're typically stronger, if that something is Knowledge, they're smarter -- you get the idea.

How about you let people select a number of skills based on their highest modifier, but add an "extra cost" for skills that do not belong in that attribute's list?

Example: Bob the Fighter has 18 Strength. He gets to pick 4 (or less?) skills from the Strength list. He can select skills from another list, but doing so diminishes the number of skills he can pick by 1 (so, instead of 4 STR skills, he could have 2 STR skills and one Non-STR skill, or he could have 2 Non-STR skills, for example).

Oh, and one more point: there's a REASON why D&D forces you to have both light AND heavy armor proficiency. You can't waltz around in fullplate if you can't do so in a chain shirt. That can make QUITE a difference...

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I don't like INT being more important than other scores.

Neither do I, tbh.  But I'm not really sure how else to generate the number of skills you get.

Ooh, here's one: what do we all think about "total of all modifiers divided by two?"  Can someone run numbers for me, using a 3.5E 32-point buy?

You could simplify it even more by adding 5 to all DCs and up the range for abilities to 0 to +9 at character creation.  (Or, at least that's what my morning brain is telling me.  It's not fully functional, so it may be wrong.  It could even be very wrong.)

All characters start at 0.  That's just to account for things like penalties, and to stop questions with monsters.

Would adding a skill to Strength and Con be possible?  (Granted, even though 4 looks pretty, adding any variant 'magic' systems like psionics would end up unevening things again.)

I really really want to.  I just can't think of anything general enough that's not covered by the other skills.

I'm interested in the Armor skills.  Are they active or passive and it wasn't mentioned?

They will be active.  I haven't written up combat yet, but it works rather like "players roll all the dice."

Hmmm, I like this system. The idea of selecting a number of cathegories for Knowledge based off your Int score and a number of Performs based off your Charisma is something we've used in our group to good effect.

Hm... putting Perform categories into CHA might take another edge off of INT.

However, yellersummer has a point -- this system REALLY shafts the stupid. The lowdown is that in order to be really effective, a Fighter-type would need an Int score of at least 12. While the idea is to make a rules-light system, I have another suggestion to make.

Typically, people focus on what they are more apt at. If that something is combat, they're typically stronger, if that something is Knowledge, they're smarter -- you get the idea.

How about you let people select a number of skills based on their highest modifier, but add an "extra cost" for skills that do not belong in that attribute's list?

Example: Bob the Fighter has 18 Strength. He gets to pick 4 (or less?) skills from the Strength list. He can select skills from another list, but doing so diminishes the number of skills he can pick by 1 (so, instead of 4 STR skills, he could have 2 STR skills and one Non-STR skill, or he could have 2 Non-STR skills, for example).

Meh.  That means you can never have more than four skills, and anyone besides a Cleric-analogue gets shafted if they want to have Perception/Intuition.

Oh, and one more point: there's a REASON why D&D forces you to have both light AND heavy armor proficiency. You can't waltz around in fullplate if you can't do so in a chain shirt. That can make QUITE a difference...

They're actually entirely different styles of fighting.  Heavy armor you want to take hits, whereas in light you focus more on dodging or redirecting so your armor doesn't have to handle quite as much.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

[size=20]Combat[/size]

There are two concepts 4B is based around.

One is the idea of "I jump on the dragon and slash at his neck!"  In 4B, everything is possible.  In that situation, the DM should merely call for an Athletics (or possibly Acrobatics) check, followed by a Melee check.  Riding a shield down a flight of stairs while shooting arrows is Acrobatics and Ranged.  Realizing an enemy's weakness to a certain element and then magically blasting him with it is Knowledge plus Arcane or Divine.  Any situation is possible, and the DM is encouraged to find the right skill check to make instead of disallowing it.

The second principle is that players roll all the dice.  The DM is there to tell the story, hold the monsters' stats, and decide what skills are called for, but whether attacking or defending it's the players who are rolling.

There are four skills to make attacks with: Melee, Ranged, Arcane, and Divine.  Unless an item, feat, or monster ability grants a specific bonus to one of these skills, there's no difference between an attack made with any of them.  Likewise, a character may defend with Block, Light Armor, or Heavy Armor skills, though the latter two are restricted to those using the appropriate armor type.  (An Unarmored character uses Light Armor.)

The point of Combat is to roll a certain number of sucessful Attack skill checks before you fail twice your Constitution in Defense skill checks.  (Those with a Constitution of 0 or less have one check before they lose.)  This doesn't necessarily result in death; it can simply mean a character loses counsciousness and is taken captive.

[Josh]

Brilliant idea.  Basically this turns a d20 game into a story game.  You are certainly on to something here.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Hm.  This is annoying to me:

A character trained in, say, Heavy Armor with a CON of +4 will have at level 1 a +9 to defense saves and 8 failures.  A character not trained in armor and with a CON of 10 -- say, your typical wizard archetype -- will have a -5 and one failure before they pass out.  Especially considering that magic armor would give bonuses to defense checks, I am REALLY not okay with this power-level disparity.

How does everyone feel about getting one failure base, plus Con?

[yellerSumner]

I don't like INT being more important than other scores.

Neither do I, tbh.  But I'm not really sure how else to generate the number of skills you get.

Ooh, here's one: what do we all think about "total of all modifiers divided by two?"  Can someone run numbers for me, using a 3.5E 32-point buy?

Why not just pick a number and use that for all characters? 
Or do you want the numbers run to figure out what that number would be?

Likewise, a character may defend with Block, Light Armor, or Heavy Armor skills, though the latter two are restricted to those using the appropriate armor type.  (An Unarmored character uses Light Armor.)

If unarmored characters use Light Armor and both Light Armor and Heavy Armor are keyed off of Con, what's the difference (aside from needing training and the new uses you'll probably add)?
I'm guessing feats could strengthen the divide, but...

Even though it'd go against trying to give each ability an equal number of skills, Light Armor seems it would be more appropriate under Dex.

Hm.  This is annoying to me:

A character trained in, say, Heavy Armor with a CON of +4 will have at level 1 a +9 to defense saves and 8 failures.  A character not trained in armor and with a CON of 10 -- say, your typical wizard archetype -- will have a -5 and one failure before they pass out.  Especially considering that magic armor would give bonuses to defense checks, I am REALLY not okay with this power-level disparity.

How does everyone feel about getting one failure base, plus Con?

Wha? How does the wizard guy have -5?

Don't forget, you can have magic robes, not just magic tin cans.

If you've simplified the system this much, how much detail are you really planning to keep for the equipment?

[Kuroimaken]

Ninja'd by yellersummer on the "Light Armor should be with Dex" issue.

Meh.  That means you can never have more than four skills, and anyone besides a Cleric-analogue gets shafted if they want to have Perception/Intuition.

Good point. How about this then:

3 general skills + your highest mod in skills keyed to that attribute.

So, say, your rogue-ish guy could grab Acrobatics, Thievery, Ranged and Stealth with his "Dex Skills", and 3 others of his choice (like Perception, Bluff and Light Armor)? Or he could sack Acrobatics and Thievery for another skill not tied to his "main" attribute, like, I dunno, Insight or Etiquette.

Also, the problem of not grabbing as many skills as you like during character creation is easily solved by adding a feat called "Skill Training".

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Why not just pick a number and use that for all characters? 
Or do you want the numbers run to figure out what that number would be?

I like smarter people having more.

If unarmored characters use Light Armor and both Light Armor and Heavy Armor are keyed off of Con, what's the difference (aside from needing training and the new uses you'll probably add)?
I'm guessing feats could strengthen the divide, but...

Feats and flavor, mainly.  Plus I needed Con to have more skills.

Even though it'd go against trying to give each ability an equal number of skills, Light Armor seems it would be more appropriate under Dex.

Dude, it's unequal enough as is.  Plus I want characters to have to spread out their scores.

Wha? How does the wizard guy have -5?

Untrained gives -5.  I hate that people are really really skilled at the upper levels.

If you've simplified the system this much, how much detail are you really planning to keep for the equipment?

Equipment's gonna look like feats, basically: either a small static bonus or an ability.  Nonmagical gear does nothing.

How about this then:

3 general skills + your highest mod in skills keyed to that attribute.

So, say, your rogue-ish guy could grab Acrobatics, Thievery, Ranged and Stealth with his "Dex Skills", and 3 others of his choice (like Perception, Bluff and Light Armor)? Or he could sack Acrobatics and Thievery for another skill not tied to his "main" attribute, like, I dunno, Insight or Etiquette.

That's a little too limiting and far more complex than I'd like.

Also, the problem of not grabbing as many skills as you like during character creation is easily solved by adding a feat called "Skill Training".

Skill Training's a bit powerful in this system.

[yellerSumner]

Why not just pick a number and use that for all characters? 
Or do you want the numbers run to figure out what that number would be?

I like smarter people having more.

Smarter players or smarter characters?

Wha? How does the wizard guy have -5?

Untrained gives -5.  I hate that people are really really skilled at the upper levels.

*glances up* Ah, I need to read things better.

If a huge gap causes problems at lower levels but is something you want at higher levels, why not make separate skilled and unskilled progressions?  It might be a tiny bit more complicated, but you could type up an easy to use chart and be done with it.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Smarter players or smarter characters?

Cute.  Characters.

If a huge gap causes problems at lower levels but is something you want at higher levels, why not make separate skilled and unskilled progressions?  It might be a tiny bit more complicated, but you could type up an easy to use chart and be done with it.

Because it's not the check, it's the low number of failures coupled with the check.

EDIT:

I have feats for everyone to look at!  Three very familiar mechanics come back to play!  (Note: a "free raise" is a +5 to a check and counts as a raise for anything that requires one.


Feint

When you make an attack, you may declare a feint.  Make the attack against the target's Perception or Intuition (it chooses); if you succeed, you get a free raise on your attack roll.


Power Attack

You get a free raise to attack all enemies.  All enemies got a free raise to attack you.


Fight Defensively

You get a free raise to defend against all enemies.  All enemies get a free raise to defend against you.[

[Kuroimaken]

That's a little too limiting and far more complex than I'd like.

Well, it's your system. I can't tell you how to make it. 

I still vote for allowing skill training as a feat though.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

If I did, you'd only be able to take it once.

Btw, social combat: works like regular combat, attack skills are Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate, defense skills are Ettiquette and Insight.  We like?

[yellerSumner]

Smarter players or smarter characters?

Cute.  Characters.

Just checking.  I'm sure there would be some who would say the former.

If I did, you'd only be able to take it once.

Oh! What about this?

Skill Training
Benefit: You gain training in one skill of your choice.
Special: This feat may only be taken once.

Smart Training
Benefit: You gain training in a number of skills equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Special: This feat may only be taken once.


House Rule can change how many times someone can take Skill Training. 

You could also increase the number of feats a character gets at first level and only let characters take Skill Training at first level, so they would have the choice between more trained skills or being able to use their trained skills for more things.

Btw, social combat: works like regular combat, attack skills are Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate, defense skills are Ettiquette and Insight.  We like?

Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate are all tied to Charisma.
Etiquette and Insight are both tied to Wisdom.

 :-\



I was going to post this earlier, but I forgot:

I'm not sure what sparked the idea, but why not have the number of failures in combat be the total of your Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution modifiers?

Then you could have the total of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma modifiers be the number of failures for social combat.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Becuase you could still have someone who ends up with 0.

Although 3 isn't a bad number.  But it does mean we'll have to run the PBs to see how many just nets you a ridiculous number...

[yellerSumner]

3.5 32 PB, right?

16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 8 for a total of 9 in one type of combat.  I think.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Hm.  Quick math says...  hold on.

Yeah, so with a 32 PB analogue, we get 14/14/14/14/12/12 as basic scores.  Assuming I require a base score of 0 (10), we move it to 20 points.  Which means 12/14/14/14/14/12 on one extreme and 10/10/16/16/10/10 on the other.  So 1/2/2/2/2/1 versus 0/0/3/3/0/0.

Okay, let's do this.  What about sum of all modifiers over two for number of skills, sum of STR DEX and CON for physical health, and sum of INT WIS and CHA for social health?

...Holy crap.  This... actually looks pretty damn good on paper.

[Kuroimaken]

Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate are all tied to Charisma.
Etiquette and Insight are both tied to Wisdom.

Well, Wisdom equates both to perception and keeping your cool under pressure, so it sounds about right. It does get hairier when we're talking about 1v1 discussion.