Author Topic: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?  (Read 8768 times)

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Hallack

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 12:18:41 PM »
Yeah, by the 1/2 IL reading a 20th level Initiator could at most take a 5th level maneuver from a non-standard discipline.

But using a analogous feat a 20th level caster could take an 8th level spell?

Many folks consider Extra Spell generally subpar except for specific purposes or using the "you can take ANY spell version"

That is only context that does not speak in a way to clarify RAW though.  It can I believe help speak to RAI however, not to mention Rules as Reasonable, RAR.  But RAR can easily be a place of House Ruling.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011, 02:38:15 PM »
Are stances manuevers?
For the purposes of meeting prerequisites, yes (ToB, 43).

Which implies that for other purposes no.  Off the top of my head I can't think of a time that matters other than the distinction of when you learn manuevers vs stances.
It's more the page 5 "A stance is a special type of maneuver"

For example, could you wear a crown of the white raven that gives a white raven stance?
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Ithamar

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 02:40:56 PM »
Mentioning the Crown leads me to ask:  How does IL work for those?  Could a level X warblade pop on a shadow hand item and use Shadow Blink?
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Hallack

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 04:27:57 PM »
As long as he has the needed IL yes (SB has no maneuvers known prereq) and that brings us back towards the issue that prompted this thread.

I say the WB would have his full normal IL in regards to using the Shadow Blink.  Others think he would count his IL at 1/2 do to it being a discipline not normally part of the Warblade's repertoire.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 08:03:11 PM »
Mentioning the Crown leads me to ask:  How does IL work for those?  Could a level X warblade pop on a shadow hand item and use Shadow Blink?

My guess is either it uses your IL (even if too low), you can't pick a maneuver your IL is too low for (not likely), or it uses the minimum IL.
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snakeman830

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2011, 11:35:46 AM »
Mentioning the Crown leads me to ask:  How does IL work for those?  Could a level X warblade pop on a shadow hand item and use Shadow Blink?

My guess is either it uses your IL (even if too low), you can't pick a maneuver your IL is too low for (not likely), or it uses the minimum IL.
Those items state that you must meet the prerequisites for a manuver which would include IL.  Likewise, its wording would suggest you use it at your IL.

Martial Scripts, on the other hand, look like they use the minimum IL, since their effects don't matter on who used them.

Also: Nobody has a Crusader, Warblade, or Swordsage Initiator Level without having at least one level in that class.  If they pick up a manuver from Martial Study, Martial Stance, or a Crown of the White Raven, then they use an IL of 1/2 their level (assuming they have no levels in a ToB class).
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Hallack

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2011, 12:06:37 PM »
Also: Nobody has a Crusader, Warblade, or Swordsage Initiator Level without having at least one level in that class.  If they pick up a manuver from Martial Study, Martial Stance, or a Crown of the White Raven, then they use an IL of 1/2 their level (assuming they have no levels in a ToB class).

But what if they have TOB levels and pick up a maneuver from outside their classes normal Disciplines?  Do they use their full IL in that case or are they counted as a non-sublime way class for 1/2 IL)? 

That is the crux of this topics origin. 
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snakeman830

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2011, 12:29:13 PM »
Also: Nobody has a Crusader, Warblade, or Swordsage Initiator Level without having at least one level in that class.  If they pick up a manuver from Martial Study, Martial Stance, or a Crown of the White Raven, then they use an IL of 1/2 their level (assuming they have no levels in a ToB class).

But what if they have TOB levels and pick up a maneuver from outside their classes normal Disciplines?  Do they use their full IL in that case or are they counted as a non-sublime way class for 1/2 IL)? 

That is the crux of this topics origin. 
It's a manuver known just like any other.  It uses your normal IL.  Even multi-class characters know which IL to use because Martial Study adds to one set of known manuvers.
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Black Knight

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Re: Using Martial Study/Stance. Only get half your Initiator level?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2011, 03:10:03 AM »
Martial Study
[spoiler]
Quote
When you gain this feat, you must choose a discipline of martial maneuvers, such as Desert Wind. The
key skill for the chosen discipline becomes a class skill for all your classes (current and future).
Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline for which you meet the prerequisite. If you have martial adept levels,
this maneuver becomes one of your maneuvers known.  If you do not have martial adept levels, you can use this
maneuver once per encounter as a martial adept with an initiator level equal to 1/2 your character level.
 Emphasis mine.[/spoiler]

From the Martial Study feat you must still meet the prerequisite for the maneuver selected.

Prerequisite
[spoiler]
Quote
In addition to meeting the class and level requirements
[/spoiler]

From the Prerequisite, you must meet the class and level requirements and number of maneuvers known.

Level
[spoiler]
Quote
regardless of class. However, you must
still meet the prerequisite of the maneuver.
[/spoiler]

From the Level requirements, class is dropped as a requirement.

In order to learn a manuever using Martial Study, you must meet the level requirements and number of maneuvers known.

Selecting Martial Maneuvers
[spoiler]
Quote
Much like spells, martial maneuvers are organized by level.
Higher-level maneuvers are more powerful than lower level ones. As you gain levels, you have the option to select
higher-level maneuvers. Your level in a martial adept class determines the highest-level maneuvers you can select. For
example, a 5th-level warblade can select maneuvers of 3rd level or lower.
[/spoiler]

Learning maneuvers and stances
[spoiler]
Quote
ADDING MANEUVERS AND STANCES
Martial adepts usually learn new maneuvers and stances when they attain a new level. Not every discipline is available
to every character.
[/spoiler]

Table 4-1 on pg 48 limits the disciplines allowed to the Warblade class.

But the Martial Study feat specifically allows you to choose any discipline.

This was just a long drawn out way to say that I think Hallack was right after all.   :bigeye
A 5th level Warblade could pick 3rd level Shadow Hand maneuvers using Martial Study... so long as he meets the number of maneuvers known requirement as well.

Cheers.
BK
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 03:24:56 AM by Black Knight »
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