Author Topic: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization  (Read 64390 times)

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Ed-Zero

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 04:31:25 PM »
So what is the way to get, you know ULTIMATE COSMIC SPELLCASTING POWER in AD&D 2nd?
Seems to me that what Carnivore mentioned above would be pretty much the end all to casting. A Githyanki Necromancer/Psion. Having the best of both worlds, full casting in both is extremely strong. There might be others that are dual magic casting but I'm not sure where they would be.

Garryl

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011, 04:55:03 PM »
How has (almost) nobody mentioned dual-classing yet? Bringing one class up until it switches to a linear xp progression and flat hp gains instead of hit dice, then switching to another class can often be helpful. Plus, it's straight out of the PHB and works for both 1st and 2nd edition. It does rely on high stats (at least one 15 and one 17), but if you can meet them it's fairly awesome. Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale have good character generation systems for this, and I've had good results using dual-classed characters in IWD. The old gold box games from when TSR still did D&D made it easy to make your stats (just set everything to 18), but the way it forced you up to a specific xp total immediately made it hard to dual class properly.


Good Fighter breakpoints include 7th level (3/2 attacks/round), 9th level (7th weapon proficiency, 9th HD, 250k xp), 13th level (2 attacks/round, 8 weapon proficiencies, 9 HD + 12 hp, THaC0 8, 1.25 million xp). I'm not a huge fan of 13th because of the high xp cost, which usually costs 3-5 levels of whatever you dual class into. Fighters are bad to go into due to their lack of higher end abilities, although 2nd edition single-classed fighters were still nice.

Thieves are usually better to go into than out of due to their poor HD. Good breakpoints include 5th (3 weapon proficiencies, x3 backstab, 1-2 thieving skills maxed out), 10th level (x4 backstab, 2-4 skills maxed, 75% scroll use), and whenever else you manage to max out another skill or improve your backstab multiplier. Usually I find them better to go into due to their lower initial HD and higher level for a given xp value. At 220k xp/level and +2 hp/level, thieves actually get about 76% of the hp per xp that a fighter would get (after 9th level, of course).

Clerics are similar to thieves and wizards with respect to going into them. The loss of edged weapons is usually a pain due to the prevalence of magical longswords, but not that bad otherwise with an accommodating DM. High end spells aren't bad, and you can cast fully in armor. At only 225k xp/level past 9th level, they grow in hp almost as fast as thieves. Faster if you include the benefit of their healing and buff spells. Add in a batter THaC0 progression and you have a strong class to dual into from fighter (weapons not withstanding).

Wizards are horrible coming out of, but wonderful coming into. A whatever//Wizard gets better HD and various other goodies from the initial class, skips the wizard's pathetic early levels, and only costs a small amount of high end spellcasting as compensation. High xp classes usually aren't as good to dual into because it delays regaining your class features, but wizard is worth it because of all you gain from another class, any other class.



A Fighter 9//Wizard X costs 250k xp (less than a single additional level of Wizard) in exchange for 7 weapon proficiencies, the ability to wear armor (elven chainmail allows casting and has a decent AC, only 2 less than platemail or 4 less than full plate), exceptional strength (not too important with belts of giant strength, but still worth mentioning), efficient hp gains from HD (full +4 or better Constitution bonus to HP for the first 9 levels of d10, then another 2 levels of d4+2 in 1st edition, then the usual Wizard +1 hp/level), 3/2 attacks per round (before weapon specialization, haste, tenser's transformation, and anything else), and probably a few other goodies I can't think of. At the low levels, you're a fighter instead of a squishy wizard with d4 hp and 1 spell/day. At the high levels you're a wizard with extra hp, AC, combat ability (if you need to gish it up) at the cost of only one or two high level spells/day. Heck, 23% of the time (250k xp lost out of 325k xp per additional wizard level) you're at the same level as the full wizard, anyways.

Other good combos include Fighter//Thief (backstab with high attacks/round and easy exceptional strength to multiply), Thief//Wizard (skip the bad early wizard parts, use elven chainmail, thief skills mean you don't need Knock and can use some scrolls you might otherwise not due to specialization), and Ranger 9//Cleric (IWD only, gives Druid spell access on Cleric side, dual-wielding, all of the usual Fighter 9 goodies with only 50k more xp spent). Cleric 9 or 14//Wizard might also be worth looking into for similar reasons as the Ranger//Cleric in Icewind Dale (casting from multiple lists, armor, good hp).
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 05:16:07 PM »
from Complete Necromancer ..... Githyanki Necromancer kit .... basicly a Dual Classed Psion/Necromancer .... very powerful

Wizard of Nimbral kit .... an Illusionist with no bared Schools,See magic, extra Bonus spells as Cleric based on Int

Witch Kit.... free magic item,Curses .... can be combined with other kits


 :D

All of these are from Complete Necromancer?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 05:17:28 PM »
Old School Ascension ... by BetaSquirrell
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19859666/Old_School_Ascension?pg=1


I don't have that version of the DMG.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 05:40:35 PM »
Don't you lose the use of your old class abilities while dual classing?
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2011, 05:54:29 PM »
Don't you lose the use of your old class abilities while dual classing?

Not permanently.

Now here's a question -- what are some of the most valuable / underpriced / really REALLY useful / overpowered for the money / easily obtainable magic items in 2nd edition?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 05:58:00 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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Garryl

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2011, 06:55:09 PM »
Don't you lose the use of your old class abilities while dual classing?

You only lose your old class features (including saves, ThaC0, proficiencies, and actual features, but not hp or exceptional strength) until your new class level is higher than your old one. That's one of the reason that thief is worse to start with (other than eating up your first few HD with small d6s), since it costs so little xp you'll probably be at a higher level so you'll need more xp (and levels) to get the features back. That said, if you dual class between about 3rd-9th level, you'll still only be without your features for what would otherwise be about 1 level for everyone else, so it's not that bad as long as your party staggers it a bit. Plus, once you're at those levels, you skip through the low levels fast, and since you have the hp and equipment you'll still be competent as a almost anything even when you're 2-4 levels below everyone else. As an X//Wizard, that means using save-based spells instead of damage-based ones (like Stinking Cloud, Web, and I don't remember what else; those two are both 2nd level spells). As an X//Cleric, that means buffs, support, and your own save-based spells (Prayer, Hold Person, Light, etc.). As an X//Thief, well, you're only there for the traps, anyways, and you can max that at 100% in 2E by 4th level, 7th-9th if find and remove are separate thief skills. And if you're an X//Fighter, you're probably doing it wrong, but you'll only be a couple of points to hit behind, maybe 1/2 attack per round, nothing too huge.


Old School Ascension ... by BetaSquirrell
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19859666/Old_School_Ascension?pg=1


I don't have that version of the DMG.


Yeah, that table was fun. Ideally, you give yourself a couple more penalties and set it up so your saves and THaC0 actually improve with your level, giving you everything you could ever want, even if you use the worst progressions (Wizard ThaC0 is defined as 1/3 levels, even though the table only goes up to level 20 or so).



Has anyone done anything with the kits from Baldur's Gate 2? I remember them being fun, if imbalanced. Do they come from any printed sourcebook or did Bioware just make them up for the game?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2011, 04:45:57 PM »
1e Bard was silly.
Everyone else was 9th or 10th level.
You were Fighter 8 + Thief 8 + Bard 8 (or so).
Your advancement had you near a straight Druid on casting.
Only real disadvantage, was reaching a 10the level much later than usual.
Only then could you make yourself those nifty Bard magic Musical Instruments.

Widow

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2011, 02:47:19 AM »
Deep gnomes for darts and ungodly low AC.  Now just get your hands on those magic pigments that can paint all kinds of stuff into exsistence.  I like 10,000 cubic feet of class N poison.

Caelic

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2011, 11:23:43 PM »
1e Bard was silly.
Everyone else was 9th or 10th level.
You were Fighter 8 + Thief 8 + Bard 8 (or so).
Your advancement had you near a straight Druid on casting.
Only real disadvantage, was reaching a 10the level much later than usual.
Only then could you make yourself those nifty Bard magic Musical Instruments.



Oh, that's just scratching the surface of why the first edition bard was broken.  Overlooked points:

1. In first edition, you only got about 9-10 hit dice with Con bonus--after you hit 9th or 10th level, you switched to a flat +1-3 HP per level with no Con bonus.  Dual classing didn't help, since a dual class character doesn't gain new hit dice until they exceed their old level.  But bards...aaah, bards were a different story.  Bards got a NEW set of hit dice, starting at first level and running all the way up to 10th--meaning you could wind up with as many as 19 hit dice to, say, the fighter's 9.  With a good Con, the hit point difference was obscene.

2. One of the most overlooked abilities of Bards can be found at the top of page 118 of the 1e PHB: they not only gain druid spells, they also gain all the special ABILITIES of a Druid of their level.

3. Because of the way the experience point tables work, you actually catch up to the rest of the party VERY quickly.  150,000 experience points will net you fighter 5/thief 6/bard 10.  At 150,000 experience points, the Cleric is 8th level, the Fighter is 8th level, the Paladin and Ranger are still 7th, the Magic-User and thief are both 9th.  Only the Druid is also 10th level...and he doesn't have two other classes' worth of abilities, and you have all of the same special abilities he does, PLUS 16 hit dice. :)


Bards were broken, broken, broken.


A few other tasty little bits of brokenness:

1. Chromatic Orb: It's a first level save-and-suck spell.  At 12th caster level, it kills the target if they fail their save--and just paralyzes them if they make their save.

2. Rod of Flailing: The first and second edition versions kicked butt.  They became a double-headed flail (as opposed to the uber-stupid "dire flail.")  Every attack you made with a Rod of Flailing was effectively doubled--you got to roll for each head of the flail.




Ed-Zero

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2011, 03:47:39 PM »
Quote from: awaken DM golem
1. In first edition, you only got about 9-10 hit dice with Con bonus--after you hit 9th or 10th level, you switched to a flat +1-3 HP per level with no Con bonus.  Dual classing didn't help, since a dual class character doesn't gain new hit dice until they exceed their old level.  But bards...aaah, bards were a different story.  Bards got a NEW set of hit dice, starting at first level and running all the way up to 10th--meaning you could wind up with as many as 19 hit dice to, say, the fighter's 9.  With a good Con, the hit point difference was obscene.
This is because it literally required you to first have 5 levels of fighter, 3 levels of thief and 1 level of druid. Then you have to have 15 Str, 15 Dex, 15 Wis, 15 Cha, 12 Int, 10 Con which is insane if you look at the requirements for the paladin. This is more a prestige class or really really advanced kit than anything else.

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I find it funny that people always say that darts are the bees knees but when you look at what I already posted.. pretty much darts at it's best, they're nothing compared to archery. However, they are valid when you already have an archer or you hate archery.

Caelic

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2011, 07:31:29 PM »
This is because it literally required you to first have 5 levels of fighter, 3 levels of thief and 1 level of druid. Then you have to have 15 Str, 15 Dex, 15 Wis, 15 Cha, 12 Int, 10 Con which is insane if you look at the requirements for the paladin. This is more a prestige class or really really advanced kit than anything else.


More than that.  Remember that you had to dual class to thief--meaning you had to have at least a 17 Dexterity. 

Now, mind you, the fact that every bard, by definition, had obscenely good stats just makes them MORE powerful. ;)

awaken DM golem

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2011, 08:13:17 PM »

Overlooked points:
the top of page 118 of the 1e PHB: they not only gain druid spells, they also gain all the special ABILITIES of a Druid of their level.

Bards were broken, broken, broken.

 :twitch ... I think I was doing a see-no-evil on that.
Wow. That's really , just wow.

ninjarabbit

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2011, 08:20:57 PM »
I remember having fun with a half-elf cleric/ranger

Half-elf rocked in 2nd edition due to having the most multiclassing options.

Littha

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2011, 08:26:21 PM »
I miss Chromatic orb...

awaken DM golem

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2011, 09:16:39 PM »
Would you "settle" for Energy Missile and a Recharge Set-up ?

It could make you happy one time. Don't know about the rest.

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2011, 02:38:20 AM »
This is making want to go download BG2 and it's expansion... assuming there was a Mac version.  For some reason, I get the feeling there was...

Garryl

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2011, 02:51:22 AM »
There is indeed a Mac version of BG2 (and ToB). Just be aware that there's a bug with the full installation. It looks for the files for Umar Hills in the wrong CD folder, so you need to copy them to the right folder. The files in question are "AREA1100.BIF" and "AREA110A.BIF", and they need to be moved from "./CD3/Data/" to "./CD4/Data/". That stupid thing bugged the hell out of me and it took forever to find the solution. There's not much official support for BG2's Mac version any more, unfortunately. Doesn't make it any less awesome a game, though.
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Caelic

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2011, 11:07:59 PM »
Let's not forget the Wand of Force: It can be used to produce a beam of blue-white force equivalent to a +5 bastard sword.  It can produce a Wall of Force.  It can create a Bigby's Forceful Hand spell.

But, best of all, it has a unique means of recharging: if touched to a Wall of Force, Bigby's Hand spell, or Mordenkainen's Sword spell, it absorbs it, regaining one charge.

So it's a lightsaber with a built in forcefield generator that can destroy an infinite number of Walls of Force, and can also be recharged perpetually at the same time.


awaken DM golem

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Re: D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2011, 04:54:34 PM »
I got my hands on AD&D books when I was in 7th grade.

This is like, setting off bells and whistles in my Corpus Callosum.
My whole entire D&D universe was ... wrong !!