D&D 1st & 2nd Edition Optimization

[Ed-Zero]

I am most likely going to in a AD&D game where we will run through some pretty fantastic modules like Temple of Elemental Evil. So I looked around and found only a few tips on how best bring the cheese. I shall present what I've found here and if anyone has tips or tricks about items to get, kits to take, races to be or all around min/maxing, then post away cause this is the thread for it!

Posts will be seperated by dashes (---) here to seperate the different ideas I've listed.

Note: Apparently, most of the broken things I've found and put here are about darts.

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Throwing rate of fire is 3 per round and damage is 1d3. Strength only adds to melee not ranged, so it was a very good fighting technique for low Str characters. Unearthed Arcana introduced Weapon Specialization for fighters which would give a +1 to hit and +2 to damage and up to 6 attacks per round at 13th level and above. This turned the dart thrower into a force to be reckoned with.

2nd Edition took this even further by allowing Str to be added to throwing damage, which gives dart fighters insane damage. And when you combined that with magical darts, gauntlets of ogre strength and a girdle of giant strength you had a fighter that could do god like damage. Minimum damage became +1 for dart, +3 for magical bonus, +6 for gauntlets, and +12 for girdle, which equates to 22pts per dart as a minimum and you get to throw 6 per round.

Skills and Powers went even further into the ridicules with the throwing skill which gives a +1 to hit or damage when first bought and another +1 for each 4 proficiency points invested into the skill. So at 20th level you have invested 20 points into the skill giving a bonus of +5 to hit or damage on top of the +1 you get from skill for a total of +6, which can be added all to damage. On top of this they also have weapon mastery which gives a +2 to hit and +3 to damage for darts for a grand total of 31pts per dart per round (22pts from above and 9pts from Skills and powers). First I was a Dart throwing Minotaur of Krynn and second was a Pixie Dart thrower using the monster as player character rules.

It goes to show don't mess with a guy with darts and run away if he has a potion of speed.

--

(Different thread but same idea for dart use)

One dart doing 1d3+Strength+Specialization bonus isn't any better and certainly is much worse than many other options (pretty much anything that has greater range and damage... like a javelin). The complaint is that, RAW, even without specialization, the wielder gets to take 3 attacks/round with darts. And with specialization the wielder gets ANOTHER attack per round in addition to the +1/+2 to attack/damage, making dart specialization unreasonably better than any melee weapon and still pretty unreasonable at short ranges.

So when you triple or quadruple the Strength and Specialization bonuses via multiple attacks, you radically increase the damage capacity of darts over other weapons when, intuitively, darts should only be as effective as other weapons.

--

Fighter + Storm Giant Belt + Gauntlets of Ogre Power + Hammer of Thunderbolts (all of which are non-artifact) can make quick work of a dungeon. You figure that this level-independent character can kill anything he hits.

Storm Giant Belt is VASTLY under priced. That alone can break a campaign. We fought on a castle wall once, the character simply ripped off a crenelation and threw it at any attacker.

Other worthy things of note:
Ring of Regeneration - you win, you cannot be killed
Illusions do REAL damage - you win
Backstab - when you get it, it kills gods.
Monks - get to add strength (see: belt of giant's strength) AND a level amount to each blow (they can also fight 2-handed... and throw 3 darts per hand per round)
And, of course, the usual wizard creativity and spell power is rewarded.

--

Thrown Weapons in 2nd ed (not sure about 1st ed) used both Strength and Dex bonuses for the to hit rolls and the damage rolls. So with an 18/00 Str and a 18 Dex, you had a +7 to hit and a +6 to damage. Darts, which did like 1d3 damage IIRC, were the fastest thrown weapon in the game. The base was 3 attacks per round (by contrast, getting 2 attacks in a round was something a 7th level fighter got. If he'd specialized in the weapon he was using).

Specialized fighters got 4 and an addition +1 to hit and +2 to damage. And doing 10 damage to something small was a near-certain kill.

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in order to have the holy fighter trinity of ad&d you also need the vampiric sword. Half the damage you deal with it heals you. Go straight to win, do not pass go.

--

Play the barbarian from Dragon Magazine/_Unearthed Arcana_. They have the remarkable benefit of rolling 9d6 and keeping the three highest for Strength, with similar methods for Constitution and Dexterity. No magic items, but great surprise rolls. Most old schoolers curse Unearthed Arcana, because most of the player classes within (particularly, as mentioned, the Barbarian) are far more powerful than classes in the regular Players Handbook.

--

Most old schoolers curse Unearthed Arcana, because most of the player classes within (particularly, as mentioned, the Barbarian) are far more powerful than classes in the regular Players Handbook.

Weapon specialization, particularly the dreaded double specialization can be ridiculous when applied to bows. An elf with a bow and double specialization (if your clueless DM allows it!) will be a one-man wrecking crew.

And of course there is the old chestnut of having your 18+ STR fighter carry a bunch of darts around to use as missile weapons....three attacks a round, and as they are hand-held the fighter can include his damage bonus. A +3 dmg bonus leads to 4-6 pts per dart, for a whopping 12-18 pts a round in dart damage! Better than a longsword!

If your fighter can get away with not having a shield, choose a two handed sword or trident as a weapon. The damage vs "Large" creatures is ridiculous, and a couple of fighters swinging two handed swords (with the 3-18 dmg vs large creatures) or tridents (3-12 dmg) can quickly chop an ogre or even a giant to pieces in a few short rounds (even if the fighters are low level).

Choosing a ridiculously over powered race is important. There is no level adjustment in 1E. Svirfneblin, Drow and Derro all gain innate spell casting powers, numerous bonuses and magic resistance! Dragonlance Minotaurs gain enormous Str and Con.

[X-Codes]

The vast majority of my experience comes from the Baldur's Gate series of games.

My front-liners had a strong tendancy towards half-orcdom.  I hated exceptional strength rolls, so I'd just skip them and go straight for the 19.

My clerics also tended to be pretty awesome brusiers, usually coming in at 17 strength.  Why?  Divine power gives +2 strength (along with other bonuses), which puts them at the magic 19 number.  I tended to do the same thing with the main character, an Elf Fighter/Rogue, since his alignment typically granted him Divine Power as an innate magical ability, and Elf strength maxed out at 17.  Combine that with dual-weapon and two backstabbing weapons and you've got, literally, hundreds of damage in a sudden burst.  In Baldur's Gate, that usually meant giblets everywhere.

[Mixster]

Light is a level 1 blind spell, and Levitate is a level 2 save or die spell, if outdoors and facing something without a fly speed.

A specialised dart thrower in 2nd edition actually threw 4 darts per round, not 3.

But actually it could go even more insane than that. A Grandmaster Dart thrower would throw 7 darts per round at level 13. Dealing an absurd amount of damage with each of them.

Not that the damage was needed, 2nd edition monsters very rarely had enough HP to stand up to it anyway. And you needed a ton of magic darts to do anything on the higher levels, so it was hardly broken, but a fun trick to whip out.

I remember preferring to specialise in 2 longswords, both as a matter of style, but also because my DM dropped more magical longswords than any other loot. At level 1 you'd have 5/2 attacks, not as good as the 4/1 of the dart thrower, but you dealt a whopping D12 damage against large. And you only needed 2 magic weapons to stay effective, as opposed to the around 15 the dart thrower used. I do understand that this is not as good as the darts in damage output, not even against large. But it much supercedes it in actual usefulness, since at higher levels most monsters are immune to non-magic weapons, so bringing a pile of non-magic darts with you is worthless. It is a good trick to kill even high level humans with though.

Since monsters have less HD in 2nd, sleep remains useful even into the semi-high levels.

Although I've never seen one in a game, a friend of mine told me that a level 3 psionic can have a once per day Disintegrate that removes 4 cubic feet from the center of any creature. What will realistically survive that?

[Ed-Zero]

Pulled some more stuff: - I'm going to be looking through the kits more thoroughly and seeing what pops out at me. Right now I'm looking at monks.

Some kits try to balance mechanical benefits with role-played or RP-based drawbacks. The Amazon kit in Complete Fighter's Handbook, for example, gives the amazon a bonus to hit against NPCs who basically understimate women and she suffers a -3 reaction adjustment from NPCs in male-dominated societies. Given that a lot of campaigns wave off role playing mechanics like adjustment rolls, the amazon gets an unbalanced benefit, albeit a relatively minor one.

The Cavalier, also in Complete Fighter's, got bonuses to hit with a whole bunch of mounted weapons, immunity to fear, a bonus against mind-affecting magic, and a code of conduct to balance it (including restrictions on ranged weapons). In my estimation, the benefits clearly outweigh the drawback and the kit is far more powerful than most other kits.

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Eleven Bladesinger is probably the most powerful Kit. Many kits do try to balance role playing penaties for mechanic benifits and since few people ever seemed to enforce the penaties it really made for some kits being more powerful then others.

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My favorite unbalanced kit was Myrmidon from Complete Fighter. The benefit is you get a free weapon specialization. The drawback is that you're part of a mercenary group that sometimes requires you to go someplace and fight (or whatever mercenaries are hired to do). So the drawback is either a plot hook or something that takes the PC out of the game for a while.

[Jopustopin]

Find yourself the complete ninja's handbook.  They have superior versions of all the base classes.  But specifically I recall my friend playing a ninja who, at level 1, had an armor class of 0 or -1 using aikjitsu or some stance like option. 

[Aharon]

The Complete Book of Elves has some fighting techniques. Among them is Quick Draw. It lets you fire up to eight arrows per round if hasted: 2 at no penalty, 2 at -2, 2 at -4, 1 at -8 and the final one at -16. The last two probably won't hit, but it's still basically 6 arrows per round, with more if you get lucky.

The Player's Options: Spells and Magic, Player's Options: Skills and Powers books can be used to build very effective casters. Base them on Cleric and spend points to get a school of wizard casting, for example. Or be a bard that gets casting that is two levels higher - almost like an ancient, 2nd edition loredrake  (Accelerated Casting from Spells and Magic for 15 building points, on top of the Loremaster Kit)

[carnivore]

from Complete Necromancer ..... Githyanki Necromancer kit .... basicly a Dual Classed Psion/Necromancer .... very powerful

Wizard of Nimbral kit .... an Illusionist with no bared Schools,See magic, extra Bonus spells as Cleric based on Int

Witch Kit.... free magic item,Curses .... can be combined with other kits


 

[Ed-Zero]

The Complete Book of Elves has some fighting techniques. Among them is Quick Draw. It lets you fire up to eight arrows per round if hasted: 2 at no penalty, 2 at -2, 2 at -4, 1 at -8 and the final one at -16. The last two probably won't hit, but it's still basically 6 arrows per round, with more if you get lucky.

The way they word this, it goes off of the actual time it takes to fight. You fire your first two arrows and then waits for everyone in his party to have their first attack, then fires off another two and waits for their second attack, etc. If you're hasted, then the same time frame happens but you somehow move the penalties down to the next arrows (ex: your first two shots are penalty free, 3rdd and 4th two are -2, 5th and 6th are -4, 7th is -8 and 8th is -16.

If there was a way to speed up arrow firing in this manner then even more arrows would be able to be fired without penalty. These shots escalate in a similar pattern and if you were able to, then the 3rd and 4th shots would also be free in the next step of hasty firing.

It doesn't even have to be a haste like thing, all that needs to happen is to fire more arrows out on your first turn before your allies attack then this sequence of penalizing shots would begin.

[SeekingKnight]

Neato, I like seeing this as I now people who really like second ed stuff.  That being said can anyone tell me the best/easiest way to kill of the 2nd ed Tarrasque?  Thank you

[Ed-Zero]

Bow Optimization

-Sylvan Elf - Get a +1 to Strength and Dex and -1 to Con and Charisma on top of the +1 to Dex and -1 to Con being an elf gets.

-Elves Racial ability - +1 to hit with a bow

-Strength of 18 gets you +1 to hit, +2 to damage while 18/00 is +3 to hit and +6 damage.

-Dexterity of 18 gets you +2 to hit. No bonuses for 18/00.

-Bow Specialization (Fighter's Handbook) pg 58 - You get +1 to hit and +2 to damage, but specializing in bows requires two slots. When firing at a range of 6-30 feet, you get an additional +2 to hit and if there is a enemy in sight, you can fire a shot off before initiative is rolled. (only fighters, paladins and rangers can take this.)

-Weapon Specialization (Player's Handbook) pg 52 - +1 to hit and +2 to damage. With a bow, you gain a point blank category (6-60 feet). In this range, you get +2 to attack. (Essentially the same as Bow Specializtion).

-Double-Arrow Shot (Complete book of Elves) pg 73 - Take a +1 penalty to initiative and -1 to hit & damage to fire two arrows at the same time. Both arrows can directed towards the same target.

-Archer Kit (Complete book of Elves) pg 84 - Can fire faster at 5/2 rather than 2/1. If you stand still, you can increase the rate of fire to 3/1. If you want to do a trick shot, you not only gain the usual bonus for specialization and high Dexterity but a +1 to attack for every 4 experience levels. If you care for your bow and arrow for more than a month (aka, they aren't new) then your arrows cause an additional 1hp in damage each attack.

-Enspelled Arrows - (Complete book of Elves) pg 105 - Fire Seeds: When the arrow strikes the target, the seeds detonate for 2d8 damage in a 10 foot radius. If the arrow hits an enemy, they take 1d4 damage as well as the 2d8 from the fire seed. The victim doesn't get a saving throw for half-damage. [You'll have to find this as you can't make them, maybe a druid can?]

-Bowyer/Fletcher, Crude Skill (Complete Barbarian's Handbook) - lets you make your own incendiary/poison arrows. 5 of them a day. (Incindiary arrows do 1 extra point of fire damage with a save vs. death magic, Poison Arrows do 2d4 damge with a save vs. poison to negate.

-Player's Handbook Bowyer/Fletcher - pg 58 - You can create your own bow that adds your Strength bonuses to attack and damage, the range is increased 10 yards as well.

-Weapon Specialization - pg 18 (Unearthed Arcana) - Point blank is still +2 to hit but now any damage you do against a target within point blank range does double damage (plus bonuses from strength).

-Double Specialization - pg 18 (Unearthed Arcana - Normally only melee fighters can take this but in the games I've played before, I was able to get this as a ranged fighter. Gives an additional +3 to hit and +3 to damage.

-Weapon Mastery (Skills & Powers) - You gain +2 attack on all ranges beyond point blank. At point blank range, you gain +3 attack and damage.

-Sheaf Arrows (Skills & Powers and I think in the PHB as well) - 1d8 damage and cost 3 silver for 6 instead of 3 silver for 12 like normal arrows.

-Quick Fire (Complete book of Elves) - Faster Rate of Fire. The first shot in a round is made at no penalty. The second shot is at -2. The third is at -4.The fourth is at -8, fifth shot penalty for it is -16. The archer gets off two shots on his first attack sequence. When all combatants have finished their first attacks, the archer may take the next two. Finally, after everyone has completed their second attacks, the archer may take one final shot. In such magically enhanced cases with haste, the first two shots are without penalty. The third and fourth are at -2. The fifth and sixth are at -4. The seventh is at -8. The eighth (and final) is at -16.

Your rate of fire is 5/2 (5 attacks every other round, 2 attacks every round [ex: your first barrage of arrows, you fire 2, next round, you fire 5, round after that, you fire 2 and so on]). In total, you'll be firing extra arrows per shot which is essentially 4 for the odd rounds and 10 for the even rounds.

With Quick Draw, you basically get another 8 shots with a slight penalty for the 8th (-4 as taken from the list below). Those 8 arrows are doubled up on each attack so realistically, that's another 16 arrows each doing near full damage (-1 damage from Double Arrow Shot).

This jumps up with haste but I'm not sure how by how much. I think it's an additional attack which would be 2 more arrows with Double Arrow Shot.

In Total, without haste, you'll be firing 12 arrows odd rounds and 34 arrows every even round.

To hit:
Elf +1
Strength 18 +1
Dexterity 18 +2
Bow Specialization +2 or +4 within 60 feet
Archer Kit +1 every 4 levels
Double Specicalization +3
Weapon Mastery +3
Double Arrow Shot -1
Total: 14 (at point blank range and only counting the first level of the Archer Kit)


Damage:
Strength 18 +2
Bow Specialization +2
Archer Kit +1
Bowyer Fletcher, Crude +2d4
Weapon Specialization +2d8 (double the sheaf arrows damage)
Double Specialization +3
Weapon Mastery +3
Double Arrow Shot +1d8 (for the additional arrow)
Double Arrow Shot -1
Total: 10+2d4+2d8 (Min: 14, Max: 34)

Total damage:
Odd Rounds: 12 arrows, Min: 168 damage, Max: 408
Even Rounds: 34 arrows, Min: 476, Max: 1,156

Edit: Added in quick fire totals with Rate of Fire and changed Rate of Fire paragraph. Also added a total damage list.

[awaken DM golem]

There's a monster called "Shade" or something like that,
which back in the day before I had an inkling about CO,
I made into some massively good stuff.
I question the legality at this distance ... but hey there you go.

I loved 1e Psi, and tried for it as often as possible.
It's basically free extra goodies,
but you hafta watch out for those Brain Moles.
They eat your powers you know ...  

[Akalsaris]

I'm still playing a dwarf fighter with the triple +str item combo and a hammer of thunderbolts.  Sadly, my DM ignores that the hammer auto-kills giants and stuns opponents when thrown - I haven't really brought it up since I tend to 2-hit most creatures anyhow..and we're doing Against the Frost Giants, so auto-killing giants and giant-kinprobably would make fights less fun for my DM.

Baldur's Gate 1 optimization tip: drop that Cha down to 3, and if you're playing a fighter-type, do the same with Int as well.  Spam the character generator until your 18/-- in Str turns into something respectable.

[Saeomon]

3.5 Psionics isn't broken.

2nd Edition Psionics is.

A level 1 Nomad can Teleport, and with the 2.0 edition of psionic meditation (or whatever they called it) you really can refill your PP after every battle.

[Endarire]

Why did 2E try to balance mechanics with RP?

[Ed-Zero]

I'm still playing a dwarf fighter with the triple +str item combo and a hammer of thunderbolts.

Which items make up the triple +str combo?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

IIRC, psionic character just got random powers.  So you could have a first level character wandering around with UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER

Of course, the build-your-own-class option was even brokener.

[Ed-Zero]

Dart Optimization (aka: other missle weapons)

Taking a look at Darts just to see what everyone was saying about it before hand. We can see now that the damage is pathetic compared to an Archer. I would much rather have a dart thrower in game than a archer like I posted above.

To hit:
Gnome +1 (Unearthed Arcana)
Sharpshooter Kit (Skills and Power) +1
Strength 18 +1
Dexterity 18 +2
Weapon Specialization +2
Double Specialization +3
Weapon Mastery +3
Total: 13

Damage:
Dart 1d3
Sharpshooter Kit (Skills and Power) +1
Dart Specialization +2
Weapon Specialization +1d3 (double damage for point blank range)
Double Specialization +3
Weapon Mastery +3
Throwing Skill (Skills & Powers) +1 to attack or damage (can spend more points to stack this)
Total: 9+2d3 (Min: 11, Max 15)

Items:
Dart of the Hornet's Nest (UA) - Multiplies when thrown

Rate of Fire: 4 per round with specialization or 3 without it.

Total damage:
Every Round: 4 darts, Min: 44, Max: 60

Notes: You'll throw 4/round with a +12 to hit with each dart doing at least 11 damage.

[Aharon]

@Ed-Zero
Which way of Stat-Generation does your group use? With the 2nd ed recommended 3d6, assign as you wish, it would be very hard to get even one 18, let alone 2.

[Ed-Zero]

I've had it just plain 3d6 for each stat and that's your stat, roll 3d6 for each stat 6 times for a greater choice and 4d6 drop the highest. To have 2 18's with a sylvan elf you need a 16 dex and 17 strength which is a bit easier to get than straight 18's.

[Gavinfoxx]

So what is the way to get, you know ULTIMATE COSMIC SPELLCASTING POWER in AD&D 2nd?