Cute Bruiser [3.5 template, wip]

[bhu]

This definitely makes me giggle, therefore I must approve 

[Catty Nebulart]

The references to monk only come in two places, really, in relation to the natural slam attack. I wanted it to basically allow the cute bruiser to benefit from the monk's unarmed strike damage progression without allowing them to combine the slam with flurry of blows, for instance. Cute bruisers don't rely on nimbleness and quick jabs; they use one or two powerful strikes to overwhelm their opponent. I'll revise the wording later after I've had some sleep.

Allowing the combination would really not make monks broken (it would take a lot more to do that), and the current wording behaves strangely, since if you get the improved unarmed strike feat you don't have the monks's unarmed strike. And then you have issues with the monk-like classes.

Anyway after working with the template a bit a few suggestions;

At 12 HD and every 2 HD after that

Your DR goes up by 2 every even level now, make it odd levels for a smoother progression of 1 DR per level.

Also it feels like a +2LA template, but then it has very high synergy with the gloura which has been my main testbed so far, with a petal it's much less abusable. I also think it is because most templates don't scale well and this one does. Maybe make a note that it is not eligible for LA buyoff? Afterall LA buoff was created to fix the fact that templates and races didn't scale.

[VennDygrem]

Allowing the combination would really not make monks broken (it would take a lot more to do that), and the current wording behaves strangely, since if you get the improved unarmed strike feat you don't have the monks's unarmed strike. And then you have issues with the monk-like classes.

What does Improved Unarmed Strike have to do with it?

Your DR goes up by 2 every even level now, make it odd levels for a smoother progression of 1 DR per level.

That's not really all that much smoother. The rate at which their DR improves isn't improved so much as the strength of it. Rather, they don't get tougher faster, they just get that much tougher.

Also it feels like a +2LA template, but then it has very high synergy with the gloura which has been my main testbed so far, with a petal it's much less abusable. I also think it is because most templates don't scale well and this one does. Maybe make a note that it is not eligible for LA buyoff? Afterall LA buoff was created to fix the fact that templates and races didn't scale.

Once again, this template isn't intended for normal D&D games. It's intended for a game in which most if not all characters are gaining equivalently-powered templates based on themed Tropes. Ideally, they'd all increase abilities to about the same amount and all only be +1, particularly if they gain that +1 template for free (ie: no level/xp cost). I only really attached a LA for formality's sake.
Besides, published templates aren't created equally anyway, as we're all aware.

[Catty Nebulart]

What does Improved Unarmed Strike have to do with it?

From the template; ...or the monk's unarmed strike That will lead to some RAW vs RAI agruments, such as does the feat unarmed strike grant the monk's unarmed strike? and what happens if a CB picks up a level of monk later? It's just a headache to deal with.

That's not really all that much smoother. The rate at which their DR improves isn't improved so much as the strength of it. Rather, they don't get tougher faster, they just get that much tougher.

One of us is misunderstanding the other, but I am not sure which it is.
at the moment at level 12 you gain +2 DR, and at level 13 nothing, and at level 14 +2 DR, at level 15 nothing, etc. What I propose is to make the +1 DR that goes beyond half HD hit every odd level, so starting level 11 if you still want DR 15/- at level 20. does that make sense?

Once again, this template isn't intended for normal D&D games. It's intended for a game in which most if not all characters are gaining equivalently-powered templates based on themed Tropes. Ideally, they'd all increase abilities to about the same amount and all only be +1, particularly if they gain that +1 template for free (ie: no level/xp cost). I only really attached a LA for formality's sake.
Besides, published templates aren't created equally anyway, as we're all aware.

Ah yes, published templates vary wildly in power. Anyway if you don't want a fixed LA just a set of templates of equivalent power I would use LA: N/A. At that point it's DM fiat as it should be.

[VennDygrem]

Simply gaining improved unarmed strike as a feat does not interfere. I suppose as written it's more complex than it needs to be, but the idea was that a cute bruiser with levels in monk before getting the template would not gain the slam attack, since the slam is essentially the same thing attack as the unarmed strike (ie: an attack made with some/any part of the characters body). However, they can still gain levels in monk and improve their slam/unarmed damage.

If it's too much of a pain in the neck, I'll just change it.

On your second point, I didn't misunderstand you. I just don't want the DR to change from every-other level to every level. The only mechanical difference is gaining a point every level instead of having to wait every other level, but I've already gone through a lot of revisions in striking a balance. I'm done with the damage reduction, and like it how it is. If enough other people spoke up and said it should be made into an every-level one-point increase instead of the way it is, I might consider changing it, but otherwise I'm content to let it be playtested as-is.

[VennDygrem]

Due to criticism of the wording, I've attempted to alter the clause of the slam attack. The interaction with Unarmed Strike is effectively its own paragraph now, and make a Cute Bruiser who is a monk much deadlier than a normal monk. It also makes the monk a very powerful melee combatant, possibly/probably too powerful. However, anyone who wants to abuse that also then has to take some 11-15 levels in Monk and pretty much nothing else, so it may well even out.

[Catty Nebulart]

Due to criticism of the wording, I've attempted to alter the clause of the slam attack. The interaction with Unarmed Strike is effectively its own paragraph now, and make a Cute Bruiser who is a monk much deadlier than a normal monk. It also makes the monk a very powerful melee combatant, possibly/probably too powerful. However, anyone who wants to abuse that also then has to take some 11-15 levels in Monk and pretty much nothing else, so it may well even out.

It is much better, but honsetly I would leave most of the monk specific stuff out of there. Ask yourself how a level 11 druid compares to a level 12 monk with this template. The druid can easily take a from that has more attacks and more damage etc when the druid is wildshaped, and the monk doens't have spells. That doesn't even get into the flexibility (flight etc) that forms have. If you put anything monk-specific in there make it a buff, not a nerf.

[VennDygrem]

Honestly, the monk stuff in there IS a buff. A Cute Bruiser Monk gets some 4-5 natural weapon attacks all at his full BAB, and assuming monk 20 and either free LA or LA buyoff, that's 5 slams at 12d8 (or more, with INA) and full BAB, and assuming there's no other natural weapons, they should all be 1.5 x a pretty good strength bonus. The monk should hit with most of those attacks. I'd like to see a Monk without this template do that kind of damage.
A Cute Bruiser Monk should be able to deal at least as much physical damage as a wizard, to one or two targets. Can the wizard do more damage, to more targets? Sure. Is that a wizard's job? Not most of the time. A monk's job, however, is primarily to bring the hurt to one target.

In a normal game, most casters can easily outclass a monk in the damage department. In the sort of game this template was made for, that disparity is much lower, but the roles haven't changed at all. Wizards are still super powerful characters with a trick up their sleeve for just about every occasion. A monk punches and kicks something until they explode, and then dispense sage wisdom. Possibly in reverse order.

Basically, Monks and swordsages get a huge boost from this template, whereas characters of other classes still get a boost, but nowhere near as much, thanks to that last alteration. I don't think there's any question that this is a buff for the monk, and not a nerf. If you're complaining about a Monk's lack of flexibility and utility, well that's another issue altogether.

[Catty Nebulart]

Basically, Monks and swordsages get a huge boost from this template, whereas characters of other classes still get a boost, but nowhere near as much, thanks to that last alteration. I don't think there's any question that this is a buff for the monk, and not a nerf. If you're complaining about a Monk's lack of flexibility and utility, well that's another issue altogether.

My complaint is more that you unnecessarily complicate the rules, for no real reason. If you need to write special rules for a specific class Then you should probably be rethinking what you are doing in terms of templates.

[VennDygrem]

I see what you mean, but I stand by what I've done here. This is meant for a specific purpose. Not all Cute Bruisers are monks and unarmed variant swordsages, but many of them are. Likewise, if I were to make other trope-themed templates, some if not all of them would have affinities for certain classes, while still being potent without them. I would have just called this a new thing, like Archetype or something, but I feel the existing "template" works fine.

[VennDygrem]

As stated in the Changelog, this has been nerfed just a bit to, well, balance isn't the word. It is slightly less over-powered for its LA, but once again, LA isn't an adequate or appropriate system to base this upon.

*Reduced Racial HD boost from d12 to d10
*Reworded section on natural attacks and damage to clarify interaction with Monk classes, referring to it as an 'affinity' for those classes
*Changed bonus attacks from extra per bonus Flurry attack to one extra at 8th level and one per 4 HD after that
*Removed clause allowing Cute Bruisers to wield weapons of larger sizes than them; Though flavorful and technically supported by the trope, Cute Bruisers fight with their fists. Other tropes exist for oversized weaponry.
*Changed 'Little Badass' DR. Now just flat 1/2 HD.
*Reduced starting Strength bonus, removed Con bonus; Cute Bruisers can often take a hit fairly well, but that can be left to class levels or stat arrangement. Left Cha bonus for synergy with natural armor bonus and skills, as well as flavor to help justify the 'Cute' in Cute Bruiser.

[Rejakor]

Minor nitpick, but it looks like what you're trying to do with the Attacks entry is give cute bruisers the ability to use slams instead of unarmed strikes.  Instead of removing unarmed strike from classes and making it scale via flurry or something, why not just allow extra slams equal to the number of unarmed strikes that the creature would normally make, at the appropriate BABs, and add a clause specifically disallowing two-weapon fighting (multiweapon should be awright)?

Cause otherwise, you're shafting classes like the Pugilist and Unarmed Swordsage for basically zero reason as far as I can tell, and even a monk is almost better off using his/her slam as a secondary natural weapon(3 flurry attacks at level 9 + 1 slam, vs 3 slams).


Oh, also, off-topic, but, if a wizard just did damage to someone, it was either several hundred unblockable force damage with added stun and nausea (and he's a mailman sorcerer), or he wasted an action and a spell-slot.

[VennDygrem]

I'm not familiar with this pugilist class, but the way this is written shouldn't shaft the unarmed swordsage in the least. The intention is that Unarmed Swordsage gets the same unarmed strike as the monk (which gets overridden by the slam attacks), minus flurry of blows as usual. They then, however, get not only an extra attack at 8th level (when they would normally get an extra weapon attack for a high BAB, since Monks and Unarmed swordsages have only 3/4 BAB), and furthermore gain an extra one every 4 levels from there-on, which ends up giving them more attacks than flurry of blows normally does, at least without two-weapon fighting. The rules for natural weapons state that they do not grant extra attacks in a round from high BAB, and thus without the extra attacks, you'd be stuck with just the normal 2 attacks. The point of giving them extra slams at a certain HD limit is to avoid issues with multiclassing.

In the end, the whole thing is just to support a trope, and as I state in the original post, is not intended for serious games. It makes sure that you can play a cute little kid or animal or whatever, and unexpectedly be able to dish out the pain. As for the wizard comment, you sort of answer the issue. A Wizard spending a turn to cast a blasting spell to deal damage is usually wasting their spell slot and action. Their job is to either make everyone else in the party better, or make everyone on the opposing team worse (or, rather, to rewrite the entire rules of reality as they see fit). Let the monk do DPS, let the wizard inflict status effects and rearrange the battlefield and such.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. When you say a monk is better off using the slam as a secondary natural weapon, what are you saying is the primary natural weapon, in this case? They only have one, unless they gain one from another source. Basically the Cute Bruiser Monk (or unarmed swordsage) gets a certain number of slam attacks which do considerably more damage than a core monk's unarmed strike does. Besides that, all of their slam attacks are made at the same attack bonus, whereas a monk's flurry of blows has diminishing attack bonuses as you get to their extra attacks. An unarmed swordsage generally doesn't care about the extra attacks, and perhaps they shouldn't even gain access to them. Afterall, their whole point is initiating strikes, which usually allow one attack with some extra bonus added on.