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Foxwander

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[3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« on: January 10, 2011, 02:46:05 AM »
NOTE: New version 2.0 posted below incorporating suggestions and some new stuff.  Please check it out.

This is my attempt at a jack-of-all-trades adventurer class.  I really feel that in the D&D world there would be some sort of "professional" dungeon delver.  While it can be argued that ALL adventurers fall into that category, none of them are built from the ground up to really embrace the adventuring life- the Delver is.  Of course he can't do it alone, but he is focused towards that goal.

Mechanically, this is a beguiler/warmage/dread necromancer style spellcaster with a utility-based spell list, some roguish abilities, and some utility in combat (which could be enhance with proper feat choices).  I think it balances pretty well with those archetypes without "stepping on anyone's toes" so to speak- but I'm obviously biased and I'd like some honest opinions.  Also, I'm looking to play this class in an upcoming campaign so any advice towards fixing/balancing/tweaking to make it work would be very appreciated.  

The class is in BBcode below in a spoiler so as not to overwhelm this post with a wall of text.  There is also a pdf attached (if I've squeezed it down small enough) for offline perusal.  Please let me know what you think.  Thanks.

   The Delver
[spoiler]

"It's not just an adventure... it's a job!"
- Crius Aelathran, human Delver
Making a Delver

Abilities: Intelligence is a prime ability for delvers. It determines the spells a delver can cast, how hard they are to resist, and is key in many class abilities. Dexterity will help a delver avoid the blows that would get past his light armor. Strength and Constitution will benefit those delvers who prefer melee combat. Wisdom, in addition to bolster a delver's willpower, is mainly useful for its benefit to perception.

Races/Alignment: Any

Table 1: The Delver
Code: [Select]
                                                                                      Spells per Day
Lvl  BAB    Fort  Ref  Will   Class Abilities                           0   1st  2nd  3rd  4th  5th  6th  7th  8th  9th
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1    +0      +0   +2    +0    Armored Mage, Trapfinding, Delver Lore    5    3    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2    +1      +0   +3    +0    Combat Tactics                            6    4    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
3    +1      +1   +3    +1    Advanced Learning                         6    5    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
4    +2      +1   +4    +1                                              6    6    3    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
5    +2      +1   +4    +1    Evasion                                   6    6    4    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
6    +3      +2   +5    +2                                              6    6    5    3    -    -    -    -    -    -
7    +3      +2   +5    +2    Advanced Learning                         6    6    6    4    -    -    -    -    -    -
8    +4      +2   +6    +2                                              6    6    6    5    3    -    -    -    -    -
9    +4      +3   +6    +3    Special Ability                           6    6    6    6    4    -    -    -    -    -
10   +5      +3   +7    +3                                              6    6    6    6    5    3    -    -    -    -
11   +5      +3   +7    +3    Advanced Learning                         6    6    6    6    6    4    -    -    -    -
12   +6/+1   +4   +8    +4                                              6    6    6    6    6    5    3    -    -    -
13   +6/+1   +4   +8    +4    Special Ability                           6    6    6    6    6    6    4    -    -    -
14   +7/+2   +4   +9    +4                                              6    6    6    6    6    6    5    3    -    -
15   +7/+2   +5   +9    +5    Advanced Learning                         6    6    6    6    6    6    6    4    -    -
16   +8/+3   +5   +10   +5                                              6    6    6    6    6    6    6    5    3    -
17   +8/+3   +5   +10   +5    Special Ability                           6    6    6    6    6    6    6    6    4    -
18   +9/+4   +6   +11   +6                                              6    6    6    6    6    6    6    6    5    3
19   +9/+4   +6   +11   +6    Advanced Learning                         6    6    6    6    6    6    6    6    6    4
20   +10/+5  +6   +12   +6    Special Ability                           6    6    6    6    6    6    6    6    6    5

Game Rule Information
Delvers have the following game statistics.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6
Starting Gold: 6d4 x 10 (155 gp)
Starting Age: as bard/ranger

Class skills
Appraise, Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (all), Listen, Move Silently, Open Locks, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope
Skill Points at 1st level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Delvers are proficient with all simple weapons, all crossbows, whips, light armor and light shields.

Spells:Armored Mage (Ex): Trapfinding (Ex): Delver Lore (Ex): Combat Tactics (Ex): Advanced Learning (Ex): Evasion (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a delver can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the delver is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless delver does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Special Ability: On attaining 9th level, and again at 13th, 17th, and 20th level, a delver gains a special ability of his choice from among the following options.
  • Acrobatic Charge (Ex): A delver with this ability can charge in situations where others cannot. He may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking his path. This ability enables him to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balcony, or to tumble over tables to get to his target. Depending on the circumstance, he may still need to make appropriate checks (Jump or Tumble checks, in particular) to successfully move over the terrain.
  • Another Day (Ex): Once per day, when the delver would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by a melee attack, he can take a 5-foot step as an immediate action. If the movement takes him out of the reach of the attack, he takes no damage from the attack. The delver is staggered for 1 round on his next turn.
  • Damage Reduction (Ex): The delver gains Damage Reduction equal to his class level divided by four, rounded down (DR:2/- up to 11th level, DR:3/- up to 15th level, DR:4/- up to 19th level, ad DR:5/- at 20th level). Subtract the DR amount from the damage the delver takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.
  • Danger Sense (Ex): A delver with this ability is uncannily aware of hidden dangers giving him a  number of advantages. First, whenever the delver comes within 10 feet of a trap, he receives an immediate Search check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM. Second, he receives a +4 insight bonus to both Reflex saves to avoid traps and his Armor Class against attacks by traps. Finally, whenever a check is called for to avoid surprise, the delver gets two rolls and takes the better roll of the two.
  • Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the delver still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, he henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless delver does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
  • Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A delver can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. Also, he can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the delver by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than he has delver levels. If a character has an uncanny dodge ability from a second class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
  • Lucky (Ex):
  • Mettle (Ex): The delver can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping delver does not gain the benefit of mettle.
  • Opportunist (Ex):
  • Redirect Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a delver with this ability is hit with a melee attack, he can redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature with a free action. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the delver, and the creature that made the attack against the delver must make a new attack roll against the new target.
  • Skill Mastery: The delver becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, he selects a number of skills equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, he may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so. A delver may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.
  • Slippery Mind (Ex):
Spell List

0-LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Know Direction, Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation, Read magic, Resistance

1st LEVEL DELVER SPELLS2nd LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Alter Self, Continual Flame, Delay Poison, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Knock, Levitate, Locate Object, Make Whole, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Produce Flame, Resist Elements, Rope Trick, See Invisible, Shatter, Silence, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Tongues, Web

3rd LEVEL DELVER SPELLS4th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS5th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS6th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Animate Objects, Bigby's Forceful Hand, Blade Barrier, Find the Path, Greater Scrying, Mass Haste, Summon Nature's Ally VI, Stonetell

7th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Bigby's Grasping Hand, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Arcane Sight, Invisibility, Mass, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift, Project Image, Vision

8th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Bigby's Clenched Fist, Discern Location, Greater Prying Eyes, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Otto's Irresistible Dance

9th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Bigby's Crushing Hand, Etherealness, Foresight, Hold Monster, Mass, Prismatic Sphere, Summon Nature's Ally IX
[/spoiler]

« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 10:22:26 PM by Foxwander »
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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »
The concept is interesting, but I have a few baseline complaints:

1) I can see why you gave good Reflex/poor Will to this class, but even with Evasion, I think it's still strictly weaker than good Will/weak Reflex.  It doesn't kill the class, but it is a ding against it.


2) Combat Tactics is a good enough ability that it might warrant a two-level dip for a swashbuckler type, but it's next to useless for a straight Delver.  With poor BAB, light armor, and d6 Hit Dice, he has no business being in melee.  This might be better as some type of GTFO type ability to save his ass instead.  Something like a swift action 10 foot teleport (X uses per day based on class level) would work nicely IMO.  It gets you out of melee, saves you, and is otherwise useful for a lot of reasons for someone who's profession is dungeon delving.

On a related note, I have similar feelings about Acrobatic Charge and Opportunist.


3) The first level spell list is a bit weak.  Simply adding Grease could be a serious boost without making the class overpowered.  Other than that, the other spell levels look pretty good, at least up to 5th level.  You might want to add a few goodies in at higher levels as well, but I don't have a lot of practical experience at that level.


Other than that, it looks like an interesting class that is quite playable.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Foxwander

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 04:42:09 PM »
The concept is interesting, but I have a few baseline complaints:

1) I can see why you gave good Reflex/poor Will to this class, but even with Evasion, I think it's still strictly weaker than good Will/weak Reflex.  It doesn't kill the class, but it is a ding against it.
Good point. Since the class is based on the Beguiler, which has good Will saves, switching the Delver to Will might be more appropriate. But, considering your next point about weakness in combat, maybe it should be both Will and Reflex good? Or would that be too much?


2) Combat Tactics is a good enough ability that it might warrant a two-level dip for a swashbuckler type, but it's next to useless for a straight Delver.  With poor BAB, light armor, and d6 Hit Dice, he has no business being in melee.  This might be better as some type of GTFO type ability to save his ass instead.  Something like a swift action 10 foot teleport (X uses per day based on class level) would work nicely IMO.  It gets you out of melee, saves you, and is otherwise useful for a lot of reasons for someone who's profession is dungeon delving.

On a related note, I have similar feelings about Acrobatic Charge and Opportunist.
Combat Tactics was an attempt to build some combat utility into the class.  When I was designing it, again basing it in Beguiler and Warmage, I somehow mistakenly thought both those classes had medium BAB- which is what I originally gave the Delver.  That was the first thing my wife pointed out as a problem- that B/WM didn't have it and it made (she thought) the Delver too good.  Now I'm not so sure.  My intention was a class that could hold it's own in a fight and have utility casting. It seems like I've gone the other way- spells are too good and it's weak in combat. 

Your point here brings up my main problem with the Beguiler though.  Their main shtick outside of spells is cloaked/surprise casting- both of which require a character who should NOT be in combat to be in combat. I think the Beguiler would be great if it weren't for that wonky bit. BUT... I don't want to derail my own thread with that discussion.

Back to your point- that swift (or should it be immediate?) action teleport is interesting... and it certainly boosts the utility dungeon-delver aspect (*bamf*ing past doors is VERY useful).  But it might be too good as well.  It's basically the abrupt jaunt immediate magic ACF for specialist conjurers from PHB2.  Although I've had no personal experience with it in play, I've read online that many people think it's borderline broken. Because although it's meant as a get-out-of-combat card it's not limited to combat and there are WAY too many things a free 10' teleport can be used for.  Also, for the Delver it seems to caster-like.  I'd rather boost combat ability a bit and bring down spell power to try and match my original idea.

But I don't know- maybe it's just the right kind of ability instead of combat skill.  Or would a medium BAB be the way to go?  Would that make this class too good as is- or would I need to tone down the spell list to make that work?


3) The first level spell list is a bit weak.  Simply adding Grease could be a serious boost without making the class overpowered.  Other than that, the other spell levels look pretty good, at least up to 5th level.  You might want to add a few goodies in at higher levels as well, but I don't have a lot of practical experience at that level.


Other than that, it looks like an interesting class that is quite playable.
Yeah- tweaking the spell list has been difficult.  I'm trying to stay close to the number of spells B/WM/DN have (and I spilled over that limit at a few levels).  There are just too many good spells that fit a utility role- and I didn't even go outside the PHB!  But Grease IS more utility than most so maybe I can squeeze it in. Any specific ideas for tweaking the spell list? For you or anyone who might be reading this?
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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 05:39:39 PM »
I can look at the spell list more in depth later.  A few months ago, I started creating nearly a dozen of these types of classes (full spontaneous access to their entire list).

As for the teleporting, I'd say keep it swift.  Abrupt Jaunt is awesome mostly because it's immediate.  It gets to be a real pain in MC's ass trying to figure out what the conjurer can avoid.  Can he get out of the way during a full attack?  Can he get out of the way after a spell is cast before it goes off?  Can he get out of the way after a ranged attack is made but before it hits?  Keeping it as a swift action, you can still use it as a 100% grapple breaker, and to get out of full attack range without an AoO.  Also, you can just use it to extend your movement to get from A to B, or to get to out-of-reach places.  As for bypassing doors, add in a line of effect clause, and you'll be set.

Regarding the Beguiler's Cloaked Casting, it's a trap option, and the real strengths of the Beguiler come from:
  • Full casting
  • A pretty good spell list (particularly at 2nd level and higher)
  • UMD as a class skill
  • Int-based casting and 6 skill points per level
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 05:47:42 PM »
I suggest raising the hit die to d10, raising BAB to medium, giving it a good Reflex and Will (hell, maybe good Fort too, poison and disease are rampant in dungeons), but lowering the spells to a maximum of 7th level. That'd make it pretty good.

Foxwander

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 07:07:44 PM »
I suggest raising the hit die to d10, raising BAB to medium, giving it a good Reflex and Will (hell, maybe good Fort too, poison and disease are rampant in dungeons), but lowering the spells to a maximum of 7th level. That'd make it pretty good.
Now that's a good idea I hadn't considered.  By cutting off the high end of the spell list I avoid the most abuse-able spells (something I was very worried about when building the spell list and figuring out the advanced learning method) allowing for a decent bump to combat ability.  That may be the way to go.  I might want to limit it to 6th level maximum just because that's the cut-off for most other limited spell lists.

I wonder if I could do this AND work in RobbyPants swift teleport (btw- good reasoning for limiting it to a swift action) idea?  But that's probably too much again.   

Thanks for the critique and suggestions.  Please keep them coming- I've got to sign off for a bit so I can focus on college stuff.
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Foxwander

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 08:53:32 PM »
 Ok, college stuff didn't take as long as I thought.  :)

Another point for comparison on the Delver is the Psychic Rogue from the old Mind's Eye articles.  In fact, one of the reasons I finally posted my Delver idea was my DM's reluctance to allow psionics, and thus my being able to play a Psychic Rogue.  I've liked the PR ever since I first saw it but never actually played one.  According to most threads on it the class is either fine or a bit underpowered.  Which seems surprising for a class which is about 2/3 straight rogue with utility "spells" on top. 

That brings me back to my class.  The Delver is essentially the same role as a Psychic Rogue- the magical thief.  The question becomes- is the 'spontaneously cast from an entire but limited spell list' mechanic inherently more powerful than the PR's limited points/powers psionic "casting"?  It probably is.  But if the PR is overall consider a "weak" class, then, is a class meant to fill the same essential role- but with a better spell-casting mechanic and spell list, balanced?  In other words- if I replaced the Psychic Rogue's psionics with my Delver's casting ability and list would it become "too good"?
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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2011, 09:35:54 PM »
The nice thing about full spontaneous access to a spell list is that it's easy to predict what you'll get.  It's easy for Mister Cavern to see what the players are bringing to the table, and it's easy for a player to pick up and run.  Advanced Learning offers some ability to customize the list, but I noticed you limited it by making the spell take up a slot one level higher.  Also, these types of classes tend to benefit well from PrCs and feats that add extra spells to your spell list.  Arcane Disciple is really nice if you have the Wisdom for it.  The downside to this type of casting is that you don't benefit from certain types of magical items as well.  Things like Runestaves (MIC) are useless.

I haven't looked at the psionic rogue, so I can't tell you what I think in terms of balance to it.  As written, this is a fairly playable class, and a couple of tweaks would make it nice, yet still below the wizard's power level (a good thing in my book).
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Foxwander

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 09:01:57 PM »
OK, I've re-worked the spell list to focus more on utility, information, and such while removing spells that didn't fit- like battlefield control, attack buffs, or straight attacks.  While there are some spells that can be used to attack, they mostly have a good utility function. For combat spells I included things that enhance combat ability-like magic weapon, weapon of energy, and tenser's transformation at the high end. Although I kept magic missile on the list- just because. Finally, I capped the list at 6th level to allow for bumping the BAB to medium and adding good Will saves (for two good saves). I think I'll also change Combat Tactics to just a damage bonus- a dip to get that would be too tempting for any character with sneak attack (or something similar). As just a damage bonus it's probably equivalent to 1-2 dice of sneak attack- unless you really bump your Int bonus.  Anyway, here's the new spell list. Let me know how you think this changes things.

Delver Spell List version 2
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bkdubs123

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2011, 12:57:32 AM »
I think I'll also change Combat Tactics to just a damage bonus- a dip to get that would be too tempting for any character with sneak attack (or something similar). As just a damage bonus it's probably equivalent to 1-2 dice of sneak attack- unless you really bump your Int bonus.

The Swashbuckler out of Complete Warrior has the Insightful Strike class feature which adds Int bonus to damage, so if you do change it to just Int to damage I would also change the name to Insightful Strike.

Quote
Delver Spell List version 2

I like the spell list, but for levels 4, 5, and 6 I usually pepper in some higher level spells, such as one or two 5th level spells moved to 4th, one or two 6th level spells moved to 5th, and one or two 7th level spells moved to 6th. More specifically, I'd move Passwall and Sending to 4th level, Find the Path and Tenser's Transformation to 5th level and I'd add Ruin Delver's Fortune to 4th level, Ruby Ray of Reversal to 6th and Energy Immunity to 6th.

Amechra

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2011, 01:20:23 AM »
Ruin Delver's Fortune should be given as a SLA at some point.

Just saying.
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Sounds fine to me.
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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2011, 09:44:40 AM »
Regarding the spell list and features: what do you want this guy to do when the combat music starts playing?

In your 1.0 version, he looked mostly like a crowd-control caster that could shoot people with a crossbow, and who had an odd Sneak Attack-like damage boost.  It was largely a workable concept.

Looking at the spell list as it stands now, you've removed a lot of crowd control in lieu of utility.  Now, that utility looks really handy out of combat (especially with full spontaneous access to the spell list), but it looks like the class just became substantially weaker in combat.  Are you planning to offset this with a modified chassis and/or class features?  With a spell list like that, the class needs to be able to contribute in some other way.

Personally, I'd say leave the CC spells in, because fighting fools is half of what dungeon delving is all about, but that's just me.  There are other ways to make the class more effective in combat without CC spells.  Looking at that spell list alone, if you simply used a Bard's casting progression (but not spells known), you could possibly bring this all the way up to full BAB and d8 (or d10?) Hit Dice without hurting anything.  He'd basically play as an adventurous sort of fighter who happens to have magic to solve a lot of problems that he runs into.  It could almost come off as sort of a well-defined factotum, or something.


Edit:
Yeah, looking over that spell list again, if you leave it as-is, you pretty much have to fix this guy by making his chassis stronger.  Casting as a sorcerer simply won't be enough.  You could seriously say you could cast all of those spells at will, and I don't think it would be abusable in combat.  I can't see anything on there that casting it over and over and over will do anything to ruin combat.  Now, out of combat, some of those would be pretty awesome at will, buy my point is, I think this guy needs to be retooled as a warrior, who happens to have some tricks up his sleeve.  I'd say:

  • Bard's casting progression (without spells known - you know them all).
  • Full BAB.
  • d10 HD.
  • Light and medium armor proficiency.  Light shield and buckler proficiency.
  • You can cast in any armor with which you're proficient.
  • Martial Weapon proficiency.
  • Good Will save?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 09:56:06 AM by RobbyPants »
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weenog

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2011, 11:26:06 AM »
Just a heads-up to the original poster.

Around the Brilliant Gameologists forums, you don't need PEACH.  Just posting around here implies that you're ready to have whatever you post scrutinized, analyzed, possibly modified, or just be told that what you came up with is founded on a misconception and needs to be scrapped completely.  Nobody is going to be mod warned or tempbanned for honest critique of a build or a home brew creation, even if the OP didn't include an acronym asking for it.

Just relax, and try to learn something from any correction or criticism that comes up.
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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2011, 10:17:17 PM »
Point noted about "peach".  Of course, I was thinking of it more as shorthand for "hey check this out and tell me what you think" rather than the goofy acronym it is.  Should have figured that the meaning of it would have been implicit in simply posting here. ;)

Anyway- got a new update for review. Changes in this version...
  • Bumped to medium BAB, d8 hit points and 2 good saves (reflex and will)
  • Made the spell progression more bard-like- except tweaked so it at least has 1st level spells at first level. It can be scaled back to a "bonus spells" only for new spell levels to balance any of the other changes if needed.
  • Took bkdubs suggestion and added some higher level spells at lower levels since they aren't gained until later now.
  • For more combat ability I added some ranger-esque "combat styles"- but they start 1 level later than the ranger gets them. Added extra styles besides just archery and 2-weapons.  These may need to be tweaked compared to published combats styles.
  • Dropped the "combat tactics" thing and added "sneak attack" as a combat style.
  • Dropped damage reduction from the special abilities- too powerful and didn't really fit.
  • Moved Evasion to the special abilities list- you can only get Imp. Evasion if you have Evasion first.
  • And probably the most controversial change- added access to one domain (spells and granted power) and turn undead (limited as a paladin) to the list of special abilities. This might seem like a big bump in power, but I don't think it's that bad- though the domains might have to be limited to a short, themed list. 

So, here it is in a spoiler- check it out and tell me what you think.

The Delver v2.0
[spoiler]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8


Appraise, Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (all), Listen, Move Silently, Open Locks, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope

Code: [Select]

                                                                                       Spells per Day
Lvl  BAB         Fort  Ref  Will    Class Abilities                            0   1st  2nd  3rd  4th  5th  6th
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1    +0           +0   +2    +2     Armored Mage, Trapfinding, Delver Lore     3    1    -    -    -    -    -
2    +1           +0   +3    +3                                                4    2    -    -    -    -    -
3    +2           +1   +3    +3     Advanced Learning, Combat Style            4    2    -    -    -    -    -
4    +3           +1   +4    +4                                                4    3    1    -    -    -    -
5    +3           +1   +4    +4     Special Ability                            4    3    2    -    -    -    -
6    +4           +2   +5    +5                                                5    3    2    -    -    -    -
7    +5           +2   +5    +5     Advanced Learning, Improved Combat Style   5    4    3    1    -    -    -
8    +6/+1        +2   +6    +6                                                5    4    3    2    -    -    -
9    +6/+1        +3   +6    +6     Special Ability                            5    4    3    2    -    -    -
10   +7/+2        +3   +7    +7                                                5    4    4    3    1    -    -
11   +8/+3        +3   +7    +7     Advanced Learning, Combat Style Mastery    6    4    4    3    2    -    -
12   +9/+4        +4   +8    +8                                                6    4    4    3    2    -    -
13   +9/+4        +4   +8    +8     Special Ability                            6    4    4    4    3    1    -
14   +10/+5       +4   +9    +9                                                6    4    4    4    3    2    -
15   +11/+6/+1    +5   +9    +9     Advanced Learning                          6    4    4    4    3    2    -
16   +12/+7/+2    +5   +10   +10                                               6    4    4    4    4    3    1
17   +12/+7/+2    +5   +10   +10    Special Ability                            6    4    4    4    4    3    2
18   +13/+8/+3    +6   +11   +11                                               6    4    4    4    4    3    2
19   +14/+9/+4    +6   +11   +11    Advanced Learning                          6    4    4    4    4    4    3
20   +15/+10/+5   +6   +12   +12    Special Ability                            6    4    4    4    4    4    3



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Delver.

Weapon and Armor proficiency:  Delvers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all crossbows, whips, as well as light armor and all shields (except tower shields).

SpellsArmored Mage (Ex)Trapfinding (Ex)Delver Lore (Ex)Advanced Learning (Ex)Combat Style (Ex)Improved Combat Style (Ex)Combat Style Mastery (Ex)Special Ability: On attaining 5th level (and again at 9th, 13th, 17th, and 20th level) a delver gains a special ability from the following list. Unless otherwise note, a given ability may only be selected once.

Acrobatic Charge (Ex): A delver with this ability can charge in situations where others cannot. He may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking his path. This ability enables him to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balcony, or to tumble over tables to get to his target. Depending on the circumstance, he may still need to make appropriate checks (Jump or Tumble checks, in particular) to successfully move over the terrain.

Another Day (Ex): Once per day, when the delver would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by a melee attack, he can take a 5-foot step as an immediate action. If the movement takes him out of the reach of the attack, he takes no damage from the attack. The delver is staggered for 1 round on his next turn.

Danger Sense (Ex): A delver with this ability is uncannily aware of hidden dangers giving him a  number of advantages. First, whenever the delver comes within 10 feet of a trap, he receives an immediate Search check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM. Second, he receives a +4 insight bonus to both Reflex saves to avoid traps and his Armor Class against attacks by traps. Finally, whenever a check is called for to avoid surprise, the delver gets two rolls and takes the better roll of the two.

Domain: The delver gains access to a clerical domain of his choice. He gains the granted power of the chosen domain and adds its spells (levels 1-6 only) to his delver spell list. These spells can be cast just like any other spell he knows.

Evasion (Ex): The delver can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the delver is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless delver does not gain the benefit of evasion

Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability can only be taken if the delver has the Evasion ability. This ability works like evasion, except that while the delver still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, he henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless delver does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A delver can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): This ability can only be taken if the delver has the Uncanny Dodge ability. The can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the delver by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than he has delver levels.  If a character has an uncanny dodge ability from a second class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Lucky (Ex)Mettle (Ex): The delver can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping delver does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Opportunist (Ex)Redirect Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a delver with this ability is hit with a melee attack, he can redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature with a free action. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the delver, and the creature that made the attack against the delver must make a new attack roll against the new target.

Skill Mastery: The delver becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, he selects a number of skills equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, he may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so. A delver may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

Slippery Mind (Ex)Turn Undead (Su): The delver gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.


Delver Spell List

0-LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Know Direction, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read magic, Silent Portal

1st LEVEL DELVER SPELLS2nd LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Battering Ram, Bigby's Disrupting Hand, Continual Flame, Delay Poison, Invisibility, Knock, Levitate, Locate Object, Make Whole, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Resist Energy, Rope Trick, See Invisible, Shatter, Speak to Allies, Surefooted Stride, Tongues

3rd LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Arcane Eye, Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form, Ghost  Lantern, Greater Magic Weapon, Major Image, Minor Creation, Regroup, Scrying, Shrink Item, Speak with Dead, Stone Shape, Water breathing, Weapon of Energy

4th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS5th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS6th LEVEL DELVER SPELLS
Analyze Dweomer, Animate Objects, Bigby's Forceful Hand, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Ooze Puppet, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Transcribe Symbol, Vision


[/spoiler]



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bkdubs123

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 10:40:54 AM »
I really like it now. I do agree with Robby that this should get Medium armor proficiency, and I'd also say that in sticking with d8 hit die and medium BAB that you should go ahead and give it a good Fort save. The combat styles are cool for the most part and the special abilities are outstanding (you might be better off putting Sneak Attack into the special abilities). I think you should make your Advanced Learning the normal style and not raise the spell level of the spell you gain. That seems like an unnecessary tax on the class.

One last thing: something appears to be wrong with the table you put up for the class. Or maybe with my resolution or something. In any case, anytime I go to look at this there is nothing in the [ Code ] tag.

Foxwander

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2011, 06:25:00 PM »
Hmm, the [ code ] section shows up on my computers.  Not sure what that could be.

Yeah, I really think this is close to the final, balanced version I want. I actually meant to remove the level restriction on Advanced Learning but I forgot about it (I'll edit it in).  The level restriction  was mainly for when it was 9 spell levels- to prevent adding wish, shapechange, and such.  But now that it's limited to 6 spell levels, I can't see adding 5 spells spread over 19 levels getting unbalanced no matter what you choose- somebody feel free to prove me wrong though!  ;)

As for medium armor- I don't want to add that mainly because it would interfere with skills.  All medium armors have pretty bad armor check penalties and it's really hard to reduce them.  Since skill-monkeying should be one of the delver's main jobs, I didn't want to interfere with that.  Besides other comparable classes are stuck with light armor also (bard, beguiler, ranger, rogue).  Plus, I just don't think it fits the concept.

On sneak attack- I put it as a combat style to specifically limit how many dice the delver could get with it (though I might bump it to 2, 4, and 6d6 rather than 1, 3, and 5).  As a special ability (probably getting 1d6 each time it was taken) it would still be just as limited but that would use up all your special abilities, which I didn't want to do.  Plus- sneak attack is just more of a combat style than anything else.

Finally, I don't want to give it good Fort saves because no other class, besides monk, has all good saves.  So doing that would just be pushing it I think. Or did you mean- stick to two good saves, just make sure Fort is one of them?
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bkdubs123

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2011, 06:41:15 PM »
Finally, I don't want to give it good Fort saves because no other class, besides monk, has all good saves.  So doing that would just be pushing it I think.

For the other points you made good arguments, but why do you believe that since the Monk has all good saves no other class is allowed to have that? I don't think it would be pushing anything.

Foxwander

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2011, 09:12:01 PM »
Finally, I don't want to give it good Fort saves because no other class, besides monk, has all good saves.  So doing that would just be pushing it I think.

For the other points you made good arguments, but why do you believe that since the Monk has all good saves no other class is allowed to have that? I don't think it would be pushing anything.

It was mainly because having all good saves is one of the few things a monk has going for it.  :lmao  Well, sort of.  When adding any kind of feature I had to thing- 'If I add X, then compared to the other class that has X how does the delver stack up?'  Since monk's don't really compare well with other classes (ie- they kinda suck but they have a lot of cool features. They seem like they should be good- but they don't really work unless you love the concept).  So when I looked at all good saves on the delver on it's own- to me (and my wife) it seemed to tip the balance scales in comparison to ranger, bard, or rogue.  I thought if maybe the OTHER joat-type classes I knew- Factotum and Dragon Magazine's Savant- had all good saves then it might be ok on the delver.  But they don't, Factotum has good reflex, Savant has good will.  The Chameleon PrC comes close- it saves are all the same, but all bad!  So to me, it just seemed like too much.

That being said, there is ONE other class with all good saves- Favored Soul.  Now this offers a good comparison.  It has medium BAB, d8 hit points, full casting- but to 9th level w/ sorcerer progression, and it has an interesting array of class abilities without any wonkiness like the Monk to muck things up.  So with that in mind- maybe it will work.  After all, I did picture that, if anything, a Delver should be good at surviving- all good saves would definitely support that- and make taking the evasion/mettle abilities that much better.  I'll throw it on to the version that I'll present to my DM (remember- I planned on playing this class in our next campaign.) and see what he thinks.  At the very least going back to just 2 good saves will work as a bargaining chip if he balks at allowing the class.

Either way, I think the class is a really good and balanced class.  A solid tier 3 and comparable with others at that level.  All good saves makes it a smidge better- but it's not going to bump it up a tier- so I think it will work.

But if any one else wants to chime in with suggestions or advice- please feel free.  Like any new class it's a work in progress so any honest critique is good.  Heck, even if all anyone wants to do is post to say it looks fine, that might at least help me sway my DM.  I think he'll allow it- it's just that he'd rather stick with published material.  So the more experienced gamers I can show that gave their approval- the better.  Thanks.
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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2011, 10:26:10 AM »
Looking at the spell progression, the class only gets a few of it's top level spells, so it has to use them sparingly.  This means that he can't afford to spam his spells, and needs to fall back on other tactics.  Even if he could spam them in combat, you still have relatively few offensive spells.  Grease and Shatter jump out a low levels, but you're still going to be primarily relying on your combat abilities.  This guy looks more like a combatant with a few neat tricks up his sleeves to me than anything else.

That being said, I think the rest of the class needs to keep up with that.  The combat styles are a good idea, but you might want to extend them to a higher level.  If you keep the abilities as-is, I'd say boost the BAB to full.  When I look at the class and it's abilities, it really screams "hexblade" to me.  The hexblade has a full-out fighter chassis (except a good Will save instead and only light armor), but he's augmented with other abilities on top of that so he plays different than a straight fighter.  I just don't see anything in the class abilities or spells that lets me think the character would keep up with medium BAB.  Also, unless you house rule different prereqs, medium BAB locks you out of Weapon Finesse until 3rd level.

If you want to keep the BAB and abilities as-is, I'd say add in a couple of spells and possibly add one to the number of spells per day per spell level, and the guy can play a bit better as a secondary caster.

Also, you may want to rethink Advanced Learning.  I like how flexible you made it, but because you're already on a delayed casting progression, you're making any spell you gain very weak for the level you gain it.  I'd consider either removing the "one level higher" clause, or perhaps turn it into an odd form of specialization: at 3rd level, you pick a school.  Each time you get a spell from Advanced Learning, it has to be a Wizard/Sorcerer spell from that school, but you get it at the regular level.


Just some ideas. ;)
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
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Steve: *charges*
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
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When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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DavidWL

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Re: [3.5 Base class, PEACH] The Delver, a professional adventurer
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2011, 01:24:54 AM »
A very nice class. 

2 comments: 
- The "Domain" special ability is very good.  Not overpowered, but very good. 
- You actually need a pretty good optimizer, because the collection of abilities isn't clearly focused, making it hard to a have a clear niche in combat.  You'd need to pick up a few spells/domains/feats that would compliment your primary combat style, to make it all work out.

Why don't you build a sample character, somewhat optimized?  So we can see how he'd compare with a bard, for example.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

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I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
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