Author Topic: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt  (Read 2370 times)

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Zebu

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15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« on: January 08, 2011, 09:14:30 PM »
Howdy!  So here's the deal.  I'm playing a cleric in a 15th-level Gestalt game set in Waterdeep, as a member of the City Watch.  The central point is 10 levels of Church Inquisitor (because you know one would be amazing on any7 police force) followed by Divine Oracle (or some other divination-boosting divine spellcaster class).  But I'm really at a loss about what to do for the rest of the character-- the other side of the Gestalt, the race, etc.  Help?

Ikeren

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2011, 09:49:41 PM »
If you want to be a melee, some sort of ToB mix (Probably Crusader/Warblade, possibly swordsage 2 for wis to ac, monk 1 for wis to AC again?)...if you want to be a caster, go archivist/wizard (make sure you get sacred exorcist for DMM persist shens); or cleric/wizard if you can handle being mad, or Cloistered Cleric. Truth be told, I'd prestige class on the wizard side (incantatrix) more than the cleric side (though qualifying for prestige paladin is hilarious). If you want to go skills, Beguiler; or rogue, but Beguiler is better, even if MAD.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 09:51:45 PM by Ikeren »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 12:28:43 AM »
Are you using partial BAB/saves or not?

How is LA treated?  If it's only on one side, the half-fey or phrenic templates are great (particularly with the magic in the blood feat), since you're essentially getting a whole class of features for only two levels.
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Zebu

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 12:53:47 AM »
I'm looking for a mostly casting-centered build (we already have solid melee), but I'll be taking the Transformation domain so that I can handle melee when the party splits up.  In other words, melee features aren't a big deal, but I don't want to be helpless in close quarters, either.  Perhaps Warshaper?

I'm surprised you suggest archivist/wizard-- it's a lot of spells, but you still only cast one or two per round, right?  Incantatrix and Planar Shepherd are banned, but so far they're the only items the DM has forbidden outright.  He cares about "fluff," so if it's something that has absolutely no business being in the Waterdeep City Watch (say, a Seeker of the Misty Isle), he'd probably object.

We are not doing partial BAB/Saves, just the official "best at any level."  If someone finds a way to break that, the GM might change his mind, though.

Level adjustment is applied to both sides, but divided by two and rounded up (so Phrenic and Aasimar would both apply a +1 LA to both sides of the progression); Racial HD are applied to only one side of the progression (all on the same side).  Phrenic does look awesome-- I just recently learned the rules for the augmenting on power-like abilities-- but 8th level spells are also awesome, so I'm not sure.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2011, 01:09:11 AM »
Lesser(PGtF) Zenythri (MM2) seems like a good choice for a race. LA+0, stat mods of +2 str, +2 dex, +2 wis -2 cha.  True strike 1/day, resist 5 sonic/fire/elec.

If you go for high int and wis instead, lesser axani(Dragon 297) get +2 int +2 wis.

The thing about "best at any level" is that a sorcerer15//fighter1/wizard14 would have full BAB. 
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Ikeren

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2011, 01:58:23 AM »
As far as I'm concerned, a high power gestalt should have as many of the following:
1) Full casting for at least one tier 1 class.
2) Breaking the Action economy (got stuff in my sig about that).
3) Several of: Full BAB, 6+ skills, D10 hit dice, Fort + Will saves
4) Class Features


Quote
I'm looking for a mostly casting-centered build (we already have solid melee), but I'll be taking the Transformation domain so that I can handle melee when the party splits up.  In other words, melee features aren't a big deal, but I don't want to be helpless in close quarters, either.  Perhaps Warshaper?

I'm surprised you suggest archivist/wizard-- it's a lot of spells, but you still only cast one or two per round, right? 

Mostly casting-centered but still silly in melee? DMM persist is still top notch.

Cleric 5/Church Inquisitor 10///Beguiler 15 for double casting and skills
Cleric 5/Church Inquisitor 10///Tome of Battle Material for heavy melee
Cleric 5/Church Inquisitor 10///Factotum8/Tome of Battle to grab extra standard actions + Swift leap + White Raven tactics to be silly
Cleric 5/Church Inquisitor 10///Wizard 15 (which is obviously a mistake) for insane casting. Only 1 or 2 per round? Nah; Celerity, an item to provide White Raven Tactics, some belts of battle, quicken spell? 3-4 per round.

I still think Church Inquisitor is a mistake past 2, though. Cleric chasis is passable, and church inquisitor is weaker than divine orcale, RSoP, Dweomener Keeper, contemplative 6, all of which would be lovely for a casting cleric, and whatever is on your offhand side will probably benefit more from a prestige class than cleric is.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2011, 02:01:46 AM »
You can enter CI from level 3, so no reason not to.
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Zebu

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2011, 02:17:02 AM »
First, Lesser Planetouched.  A player asked for Lesser Aasimar, and the DM said that was fine, but at our level/prominence such a thing would be well known.  In other words, he fully intends to justify the lower LA using hedging/banishing/etc.  So I'm paranoid about taking a Planetouched race now, unless you know a good way to avoid anti-extraplanar spells.

Oh, yes.  I'm definitely doing DMM Persist, and I fully intend to use items to fuel it as well.

Yeah, you only need Cleric 3 to get into Inquisitor, so I'd take two levels of something else at the far end.  Maybe Divine Oracle 2 or Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1.

I really do like the Factotum, and it would mesh well with the character.  Tome of Battle material...  I keep hearing about it, but I have 0 experience with things like Maneuvers, Styles, Stances, etc.  So if that gets involved in the build, you'll be seeing my smiling face around here asking for more detailed help. :D

The DM has declared that if a spell/ability inflicts a "penance" effect (his examples were the Daze from Celerity and the Con damage from Hellfire Warlock) then that effect cannot be negated or ignored by any effect.  We can have recovery (like a Lesser Restoration or even Naberius for the Warlock) but not immunity.  Which...  Makes Celerity much less attractive, unless I'm missing something.  I'll look up this White Raven thing; -is- there a way to put a maneuver on an item?


The Church Inquisitor I'd normally only take to level 5 (if at all), but in this case I wanted the "investigator" feel and the 10th-level ability to force someone to tell the truth (not just detect/prevent lies, but actually speak the truth) seems unmatched for something like that-- heck it's the theme of the entire class.  Do you have a better way to achieve that effect?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2011, 02:20:07 AM »
Lesser planetouched aren't extraplanar on the material plane (not even normal planetouched are).  True, you can be hit by spells that are specifically anti-outsider as well as those that are anti-humanoid.  This isn't that much of a disadvantage, though, since there aren't that many of them.

Sure, there are a couple of spells that specifically target outsiders, and don't target humanoids.  You've got your revive outsider and subvert planar essence spells, but that's about it. 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 02:26:56 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Zebu

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2011, 02:25:49 AM »
Quote from: The_GM
Lesser Planetouched are always a bit unclear but basically they are Humanoids native to another plane so are vulnerable to spells that affect extraplanar entities and some of the lesser charm spells.  It's that vulnerability that justifies the one less LA.  So you can be banished, hedged etc.  Planetouched is an early version of the extraplanar as far as I can see (or at least I hope it is because otherwise its meaningless).  So you're a humanoid with a home plane other than the material plane.  Based on the wording in the lesser Aasimar section I think it should now be Humanoid (Extraplanar : {a good aligned plane}) as a type.  Hence needing your home plane for you to be banished to.

I'm all for declaring planetouched native-- those stat mods are lovely.  But if I make the argument, he's going to ask what planetouched give up to get their LA reduced.  What can I tell him?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2011, 02:28:34 AM »
Outsider type is pretty awesome.  You get immunity to a ton of spells (since, as previously stated, there isn't much that only targets outsiders, but a ton that target humanoids), improved shapes for spells like alter self, and proficiency with all martial weapons.

But, yeah.  All the normal planetouched I've looked over have outsider(native) in their statblocks.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 02:33:57 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Epimetheus

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2011, 02:30:14 AM »
Dweomerkeeper is awesome for Su Spell. And you get a lot more out of the prestige class than Church Inquisitor, I think.

Consider the last build:
Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Cleric 10 // Wizard 5 / Dweomerkeeper 10

Zebu

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2011, 02:37:27 AM »
@TML
I'll give it a try and see what he says.


@Empithemus
Dweomerkeeper is awesome, and I've thought about it.  But:
Quote from: Zebu
The Church Inquisitor I'd normally only take to level 5 (if at all), but in this case I wanted the "investigator" feel and the 10th-level ability to force someone to tell the truth (not just detect/prevent lies, but actually speak the truth) seems unmatched for something like that-- heck, it's the theme of the entire class.  Do you have a better way to achieve that effect?
Also, I think I'd be better off getting something with more support (and fewer demands on my actions) for one side of the gestalt.  I could see a psion/normal casting gestalt (since psions can split their brains in two) but arcane/divine seems a little overboard.

Zebu

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2011, 05:10:55 PM »
New update:
We are now using fractional BAB and saves.

Also, the GM pointed out to me this passage from PGtF on page 190--
Quote from: Player's Guide to Faerun
Plantouched. . . .are susceptible to spells that target both humanoids and outsiders. Charm Person works against them, and so does banishment.
Any other racial ideas?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2011, 07:35:27 PM »
I think 3.0 had a banishment that worked specifically on outsiders.  The 3.5 version works on (Extraplanar) creatures - that is, "any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane".

Now, if you pick aasimar or something, and he does force you to be extraplanar (even though normal planetouched aren't, and lesser ought to be more down-to-earth) no biggie.  Oh look, I'm stuck in the good afterlife.  If only there was some sort of supernaturally helpful kind selfless creature who could assist me in taking out the bad guys..
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 08:01:26 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Zebu

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2011, 07:58:33 PM »
Now, if you pick aasimar or something, no biggie.  Oh look, I'm stuck in the good afterlife.  If only there was some sort of supernaturally helpful kind selfless creature who could assist me in taking out the bad guys..
Hah!  I am so very definitely doing that now.


But anyways, I've pondered long and hard and come up with a more complete class tree.  What do you think of this build?

Cloistered Cleric 2/Church Inquisitor 6/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 6
Factotum 2/Monk 2/Factotum 6/Warshaper 5/

I want to work a Turn Undead-granting class in there to fuel Divine Metamagic.  I'm planning to use the Dragonlance feat that substitutes Intelligence for Wisdom in divine casting so that the Factotum and Archivist become SAD.  I'd also really like to get back up to Inquisitor 10, but there doesn't seem to be a way to do that without wasting divine caster levels.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 09:37:16 PM by Zebu »

fuinjutsu

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2011, 10:26:42 PM »
Be original.  Go Incarnate on the other side.  Incarnum gets too little love.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Rebel7284

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 11:54:54 PM »
Now, if you pick aasimar or something, no biggie.  Oh look, I'm stuck in the good afterlife.  If only there was some sort of supernaturally helpful kind selfless creature who could assist me in taking out the bad guys..
Hah!  I am so very definitely doing that now.


But anyways, I've pondered long and hard and come up with a more complete class tree.  What do you think of this build?

Cloistered Cleric 2/Church Inquisitor 6/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 6
Factotum 2/Monk 2/Factotum 6/Warshaper 5/

I want to work a Turn Undead-granting class in there to fuel Divine Metamagic.  I'm planning to use the Dragonlance feat that substitutes Intelligence for Wisdom in divine casting so that the Factotum and Archivist become SAD.  I'd also really like to get back up to Inquisitor 10, but there doesn't seem to be a way to do that without wasting divine caster levels.

Hm? A) you need 3 levels of Cleeric to enter Church Inquisitor.  B) You are referring to Archivist without actually having it in the build.
C) Dweomerkeeper 10 is epic (literally, improved metamagic is one of the few good epic feats), if at all possible take that NOW.

Lawful Neutral Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Dweomerkeeper 10 // Dread Necromancer 1/Factotum 8/X 1/Crusader 5

Two turning pools, extra standard actions, supernatural spells, improved metamagic.

edit:
X can be Monk for Wis to AC or Conjurer for Abrupt Jaunt and Improved Initiative or any number of other useful dip classes.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 12:04:12 AM by Rebel7284 »
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fuinjutsu

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Re: 15th-level Church Inquisitor Gestalt
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2011, 02:50:03 AM »
Wait. you're boosting INt and Wis?  ouch.  Is academic priest allowed?
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.