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Zaxter

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Help me build an assassin
« on: January 05, 2011, 04:13:25 PM »
I'm entering into an evil campaign soon, and can't quite pin down what it is that I want to play. I've already told the DM I plan to play a rogue/assassin, but I'm having trouble settling on a build. Did you know that there's no rogue handbook here on BG? Anyway, on to the crunch:

Level 15
Evil alignments encouraged
All books allowed, provided the DM has access
Items (here's where things get tricky): Due to the background for the adventure, all players are limited to a maximum of 3 magic items, none of which can cost more than 20,000 GP. Players also get basic weapons and armor plus 100 GP to spend on mundane items.
Other players: I'm not 100% positive on some of the races/classes everyone is playing, but other than me we have a Dread Necromancer, a Cleric, a Druid, a martial/magical "jack-of-all-trades," a "tank," and a "commando" (I'm as clueless as you are).

I've got three builds rattling around, and I'm not sure which one to run with.
Rogue 5/Assassin 10: Simple, straightforward. Maximizes skill points, SA dice, Assassin spells, and Death Attack DC. Would TWF with extreme prejudice.
Rogue 3/Factotum 3/Assassin 9: Great INT synergy with Brains over Brawn and Assassin spells/Death Attack. Still gets good SA, so also a TWF candidate.
Rogue 3/Factotum 3/Assassin 8/Thief-Acrobat 1: An amazing acrobat, with Brains over Brawn applying to all the Thief-Acrobat skills. Weakest SA, but still gets the best Assassin goodies. If I went for more Factotum levels, I could get Balancing Lorecall to do some neat tricks (why is that spell not on the Assassin list?!). Would probably switch to an archer build.

I'm also going to need help picking items. I'm considering an Assassin's Dagger (18,302 GP), custom Gloves of the Balanced Hand with +2 Dexterity (12,000 GP, assumes the DM allows the item improvement rules from MIC), +3 Mithral Chain Shirt of Shadow and Silent Moves (17,750 GP), and a custom Hat of Disguise with +4 Intelligence (17,800). That's four items, so one needs to go, but which? I'm also open to suggestions for things I hadn't thought of, of course. A Vest of Resistance might also be a good idea, considering his fort/will saves will suck. A way to sneak attacks immune creatures would be good, but there must be a way to get that via feats/spells/ACFs instead.

Thanks for your time, I look forward to seeing some clever ideas.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2011, 04:24:48 PM »
Try a changeling ACF feat rogue 1/factotum 11/swordsage X (mix in a few other dip-friendly classes if you like, or work in chameleon 8 maybe).

This is awesome sauce. Tons of tricks up your sleeve.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 05:40:24 PM by Lycanthromancer »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2011, 05:29:55 PM »
Weapons of legacy allowed?

Anyway, if you don't mind being a little late to the party, you're at the point where dipping 2 or 3 levels of this will result in a big improvement (particularly if you have LA buyoff available). 

Rejuvenation gives you an 80% chance of shrugging off death.  Telekinesis gives you twelve attacks for sneak attacking with.  You're perfectly silent, can become virtually invisible, and can't be stopped by doors. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 05:34:05 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Zaxter

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2011, 06:35:34 PM »
Try a changeling ACF feat rogue 1/factotum 11/swordsage X (mix in a few other dip-friendly classes if you like, or work in chameleon 8 maybe).

This is awesome sauce. Tons of tricks up your sleeve.
I was toying with the idea of playing a Changeling, and using a lot more Factotum. I kind of want to keep some Assassin levels though, as that's what the party is expecting of me, and because I'm rather fond of their spellcasting. If the item rules for this game weren't so restrictive I'd probably go Factotum and just UMD a bunch of scrolls/wands instead, but that simply isn't an option.

Weapons of legacy allowed?

Anyway, if you don't mind being a little late to the party, you're at the point where dipping 2 or 3 levels of this will result in a big improvement (particularly if you have LA buyoff available). 

Rejuvenation gives you an 80% chance of shrugging off death.  Telekinesis gives you twelve attacks for sneak attacking with.  You're perfectly silent, can become virtually invisible, and can't be stopped by doors. 
Not sure about Weapons of Legacy. The DM would probably allow the book under normal circumstances, but with the item rules in this game, it's a sketchy area. I'll have to ask. Any you had in mind that I should take a look at?

The Ghost levels are certainly powerful, but there's no convincing way to fit that into my backstory. Also, I've never played with this group before, so I don't know if they're keen on optimization of that level. Yes, I know that whatever I do won't be as strong as a straight wizard at this level, but something like that is obvious cheese, and probably won't sit well with the other players if they're not like you and I.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2011, 06:40:52 PM »
The backstory is pretty easy.
1) Pick the most powerful guy in the campaign
2) Your character swore that they would kill them no matter what
3) He's the most powerful guy, so you failed
4) Now you can't rest until you kill your way up through the hierarchy and defeat him.
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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2011, 06:53:48 PM »
Something X/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer X > anything involving the actual Assassin class.

Scout 4/Ranger 1/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 9 = Badass mage hunter.  Since you have Golemstrike on your spell list, pick up Extra Favored Enemy to get FE: Undead and you'll be able to skirmish-attack pretty much anything, adding a bunch of damage dice to ray spells.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2011, 10:25:07 PM »
human spellthief1/wizard4/assassin1/ultimatemagus9

Feats:
1-able learner, point blank shot
3-metamagic feat (maybe reach spell)
6-practiced spellcaster (assassin)
9-master spellthief
ultimate mague5-split ray
12-precise shot
15-quicken spell

gorfnad

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2011, 04:32:08 AM »
I'm entering into an evil campaign soon, and can't quite pin down what it is that I want to play. I've already told the DM I plan to play a rogue/assassin, but I'm having trouble settling on a build. Did you know that there's no rogue handbook here on BG? Anyway, on to the crunch:

Well there is a Rogue Handbook over on GiTP.
Also found on GitP is the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: Assassin. Page 6 post 163 is where the builds are posted.

Rogue 5/ Assassin 9/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6 - fairly straight forward assassin/pouncer
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 04:37:41 AM by gorfnad »

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2011, 05:28:44 AM »
Changeling Facotum 5/Chameleon 10 = You can impersonate anybody, using that to get close to your target where you kill them. :D
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JaronK

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 07:08:45 AM »
How about Whispergnome Factotum 13/Unarmed Swordsage 2?  Swap proficiency in the Hooked Hammer for the Quickblade so you look like that guy from Assassin's Creed.  Use Master of Poisons and generate plenty of poison with Minor Creation (Black Lotus or Sinmaker's Surprise).  Darkstalker is a feat well worth taking.  And of course use various stealthy manuevers like Shadow Jaunt, Cloak of Shadows, and Assassin's Stance.  Consider also taking Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike to lower enemy saves, and thus make poison better.  As for your weapon, make it a +1 Blurstriking Feycraft Adamantium Quickrazor of Assassination... that should fit the budget, I think.  Then get a Tooth of Leraje so it can count as a +5 weapon.  All very appropriate for an assassin.

Then sneak up on people and kill them with stealth attacks and poison.  You'll have a bit of sneak attack to work with, and Iajuitsu Focus already works on sneak attack immunes.

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 10:15:10 AM »
How about Whispergnome Factotum 13/Unarmed Swordsage 2?  Swap proficiency in the Hooked Hammer for the Quickblade so you look like that guy from Assassin's Creed.  Use Master of Poisons and generate plenty of poison with Minor Creation (Black Lotus or Sinmaker's Surprise).  Darkstalker is a feat well worth taking.  And of course use various stealthy manuevers like Shadow Jaunt, Cloak of Shadows, and Assassin's Stance.  Consider also taking Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike to lower enemy saves, and thus make poison better.  As for your weapon, make it a +1 Blurstriking Feycraft Adamantium Quickrazor of Assassination... that should fit the budget, I think.  Then get a Tooth of Leraje so it can count as a +5 weapon.  All very appropriate for an assassin.

Then sneak up on people and kill them with stealth attacks and poison.  You'll have a bit of sneak attack to work with, and Iajuitsu Focus already works on sneak attack immunes.

JaronK
Who needs the PrC when you can have something like this?

Also, a properly set-up psychic warrior can play the assassin game quite well, though he only deals in poison if he sets his mind to it (and he can, and quite well; see psionic minor creation).

Consider a poison-immune race, such as warforged or necropolitan.
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Zaxter

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2011, 04:59:10 PM »
I asked about playing a ghost. The answer is no. No surprises there.

The Unseen Seer idea actually sounds pretty promising, and has been approved by the DM. I might see if I can tweak my character to use that, since a lot of Assassin goodies can be replicated with spells. Death attack -> any SoD, poison use -> Poison, high sneak attack -> Hunter's Eye. How can I grab Uncanny Dodge and HiPS? I would have gone with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis for the latter, but the continuous version is just out of the price range we're allowed. Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra (Feet) could get me Uncanny Dodge, but two feats seems like a lot for a character that will most likely be feat-starved. Oh, that reminds me: flaws are allowed, and characters may take one (randomly-determined) trait.

Weapons of Legacy are also allowed. Are there actually any good ones for a character such as this, or was that just a lead in to "Legacy Champion = higher Death Attack DC?"

I have no intention of using Minor Creation shenanigans, or other uses of spells/feats/etc that would be likely to make the DM go crazy. Please do not suggest them, I don't want the DM lining up his crosshairs on my character if I can avoid it.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2011, 05:06:16 PM »
Founding your own your weapon of legacy allows some nice stuff.  Make it an intelligent weapon and give it the glitterdust at will ability.  As an intelligent weapon, it can activate itself, so you get an action-free glitterdust every turn (plus, the weapon itself has pretty good ranges on its blindsense and darkvision, and can telepathically talk to you).  Pick up obscuring mist if you can yoink abilities from other weapons.

IIRC, there's a handbook on weapons of legacy somewhere on the fora. 

If you can swing making it an item familiar (or ancestral weapon), you've got one seriously pimped out piece of hardware.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 05:13:16 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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gorfnad

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 05:24:19 PM »
Whisper Gnome Shadowcaster 5/ Assassin 1/ Unseen Seer (advances Assassin casting) 2/ Noctumancer 7/ Arcane Trickster (advances Shadowcaster casting) 5

With any Whisper Gnome Assassin builds remember to look into the feats Magic in the Blood (PGtF) and Silencing Strike (RoS), because the ability to silence a spellcaster 3 times per day for rounds/character level with no save is very nice. Also if you use this combo, your victims will not be able to scream for help.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 07:13:29 AM by gorfnad »

Sohala

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 05:28:47 PM »
Dark Chameleon Whisper Gnome
Rogue 3/Wizard 1/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 2/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 5

Polymorph into a hydra, use distracting ember or cloak of deception, SA with all heads.

You could go arcane trickster for faster SA if you wanted.

You don't have to go with the pair of templates, but they do increase sneakiness by a lot.

Oh, add a level of warshaper for more attacks.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 05:44:51 PM by Sohala »
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Echoes

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2011, 06:37:49 PM »
Wait, a maximum of 3 magic items at level 15, and no more than 20k each? Your DM does realize that 15th-level PCs are expected to have, on average, 200,000 gp worth of equipment each, right? Does he plan on making up the difference with treasure in-game? If not, you guys will be woefully under-equipped, and the non-casters esp. will be at a severe disadvantage when it comes to keeping up? That rule makes the Cleric and Druid ridiculously better than everyone else (hope they invest in Chain Spell).

Given that, if you craft the item yourself, can it be up to 20,000 gp at the crafted price, or is the cap on the market price? If it's the former, be a spellcaster and take Craft Wondrous Item. Possibly take Craft Magic Arms and Armor as well, depending on how you want to go. Make all your gear, and use whatever cost reductions you can to get more value out of it (10% reduction to restrict it by class, 10% reduction to require a specific skill, 10% reduction to restrict it by alignment, the stacking magic items reductions, etc).

I really can't advise playing a non-caster with those item rules. It's a simple fact of the game: you need the bonuses from magic items to compete as a martial-type, esp. at high levels. Not to mention the array of resistances and immunities that are necessary to survive combat in a high-level environment, which will be hard if not impossible to come by under those rules.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2011, 07:26:39 PM »
If crafting is allowed, check item crafting price reducers. I had a level 12 psywar that started with 88,000 gp to spend, and ended at level 11 with over 220,000 gp in gear. If I'd taken Words of Creation (and then psiref'd it out later), I could've had a ML 8 psychoactive skin of proteus (which is ridiculously expensive) for the same price as the standard version.

You could net, what, 150,000 gp or more in magic items that way?
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Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
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Zaxter

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2011, 06:28:18 PM »
Founding your own your weapon of legacy allows some nice stuff.  Make it an intelligent weapon and give it the glitterdust at will ability.  As an intelligent weapon, it can activate itself, so you get an action-free glitterdust every turn (plus, the weapon itself has pretty good ranges on its blindsense and darkvision, and can telepathically talk to you).  Pick up obscuring mist if you can yoink abilities from other weapons.

IIRC, there's a handbook on weapons of legacy somewhere on the fora.  

If you can swing making it an item familiar (or ancestral weapon), you've got one seriously pimped out piece of hardware.
I just took a look at the Legacy Weapon handbook. It's actually quite tempting, if the DM will let me make my own. It would let me pick up Uncanny Dodge (or simply never be flat-footed), plus some other goodies. Thanks for letting me know about the handbook. (BTW, the Obscuring Mist ability is an option in menu B -- there's no need to "yoink abilities.")

Whisper Gnome Shadowcaster 5/ Assassin 1/ Unseen Seer (advances Assassin casting) 2/ Noctumancer 7/ Arcane Trickster (advances Shadowcaster casting) 5

With any Whisper Gnome Assassin builds remember to look into Magic in the Blood (PGtF) and Silencing Strike (RoS) because the ability to silence a spellcaster 3 times per day is very nice. Otherwise if you use this combo your victims will not be able to scream for help.
Interesting, but seems pretty limited in its skills other than hide/move silently. Wouldn't do to play this if I'm the party skillmonkey (which I am).

Dark Chameleon Whisper Gnome
Rogue 3/Wizard 1/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 2/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 5

Polymorph into a hydra, use distracting ember or cloak of deception, SA with all heads.

You could go arcane trickster for faster SA if you wanted.

You don't have to go with the pair of templates, but they do increase sneakiness by a lot.

Oh, add a level of warshaper for more attacks.
I'm considering taking the Dark template since a continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis is just out of budget. Where is Chameleon from, and what does it do?

Quote
Wait, a maximum of 3 magic items at level 15, and no more than 20k each? Your DM does realize that 15th-level PCs are expected to have, on average, 200,000 gp worth of equipment each, right? Does he plan on making up the difference with treasure in-game? If not, you guys will be woefully under-equipped, and the non-casters esp. will be at a severe disadvantage when it comes to keeping up? That rule makes the Cleric and Druid ridiculously better than everyone else (hope they invest in Chain Spell).

Given that, if you craft the item yourself, can it be up to 20,000 gp at the crafted price, or is the cap on the market price? If it's the former, be a spellcaster and take Craft Wondrous Item. Possibly take Craft Magic Arms and Armor as well, depending on how you want to go. Make all your gear, and use whatever cost reductions you can to get more value out of it (10% reduction to restrict it by class, 10% reduction to require a specific skill, 10% reduction to restrict it by alignment, the stacking magic items reductions, etc).

I really can't advise playing a non-caster with those item rules. It's a simple fact of the game: you need the bonuses from magic items to compete as a martial-type, esp. at high levels. Not to mention the array of resistances and immunities that are necessary to survive combat in a high-level environment, which will be hard if not impossible to come by under those rules.
Yes, the DM is perfectly aware that our characters are far below our expected WBL. That was the idea. Ever heard of a low-treasure campaign? Maybe the DM's planning to rain loot on us once the game begins, or maybe not, I don't know. Some other players have mentioned crafting, though I don't know if they're going to make something above 20k market price (so far the discussion is just some players trying to explain the crafting rules to someone who isn't too familiar with 3.5). I know it's not wise to play a non-caster at this level. That's why I'm planning to switch to Unseen Seer.


Anyway, I'm considering the build Factotum 3/Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination)/Unseen Seer 7 right now. Thoughts on spell selection? I'm thinking Hunter's Eye and Divine Insight as my advanced learning spells, but I'm not sure what to pick the next time I get it. Please keep in mind that I'm trying to maintain the flavor of an Assassin -- subtlety is a plus.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 06:31:46 PM by Zaxter »

Sohala

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2011, 03:50:09 AM »
Dark Chameleon Whisper Gnome
Rogue 3/Wizard 1/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 2/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 5

Polymorph into a hydra, use distracting ember or cloak of deception, SA with all heads.

You could go arcane trickster for faster SA if you wanted.

You don't have to go with the pair of templates, but they do increase sneakiness by a lot.

Oh, add a level of warshaper for more attacks.
I'm considering taking the Dark template since a continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis is just out of budget. Where is Chameleon from, and what does it do?

From underdark, the forgotten realms supplement. It gives more bonuses to hide and move silently, plus a 10ft tongue that can be used for touch attacks.
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Tethlis

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Re: Help me build an assassin
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2011, 04:50:34 AM »
Human Rogue 3 / Swordsage 4 / Telflammar SHadowlord 5 / Swordsage 12

Make use of Craven and Shadowblade. Plays like an assassin but with multiple full round attacks per round.