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SylvanPrincess

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[help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« on: January 05, 2011, 05:19:47 AM »
note to new readers: feel free to comment on the op, but the thread has diverted to other things

wondering what you all think of an abjurant champion/champion of corellon build-with the right entry, could be sweet! my first thought is duskblade, but even if id go Duskblade 8/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Champion of Corellon 7, id still only have 4th level spells. this build is pretty nice in that it have full bab, but limited spellcasting. im thinking that it doesnt need to have full spellcasting, that it will be more of a melee character. any thoughts on a different entry?

what about duskblade 5/seul arcanamach 3/abjurant champion 5/champion of corellon 7? the 5 levels of duskblade would give you 2nd level duskblade spells, which is w/e, but arcanamach and abjurant champion together equal 5th level arcanamach spells, and champion of corellon would be a sweet topping to it all i think. 19 bab
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 08:18:14 PM by SylvanPrincess »

cru

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2011, 05:31:14 AM »
First impression: you'd be better off with duskblade 13 / cocl 7, because duskblades get a fantastic ability at level 13.
An alternative would be duskblade 3 / whatever XX / AC 5 / cocl 7.

Edit: actually, why cocl7? Would cocl 2 be not enough?


As for the suel arcanamach build, you'd get far better spells while sacrificing 1 BAB. Which is probably worth it. On the other hand, arcanamach's spells are charisma based, duskblade has int-based spells. You need dex for cocl and con and str certainly have uses... kinda mad. I think you should take 4 levels of arcanamach. Probably something like duskblade 3 / fighter 2 / filler 1 / suel 4 / cocl 2 / ac 5 / filler 3
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 05:55:26 AM by cru »

Eviltedzies

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2011, 07:47:54 AM »
Build 1: Duskblade 13 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Champion of Corellon 2
-Feats-
1. Combat Expertise
2. Combat Casting (Duskblade)
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Arcane Strike
9. Weapon Focus Longsword
12. Mounted Combat
15. Dodge
18. Extra Spell (Insert nice touch spell of 4th level or lower here. Shiver touch works nicely.)

*If flaws are allowed, use the following setup:
1. Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Weapon Focus Longsword
2. Combat Casting (Duskblade)
3. Combat Expertise
6. Arcane Strike
9. Mounted Combat
12. Dodge
15. Extra Spell (Wraithstrike. Do not argue, just shut up and do.)
18. Extra Spell (Insert nice touch spell of 4th level or lower here. Shiver touch works nicely.)

-Notes-
* Full Arcane Channeling
* 18 level Duskblade Casting (5th levels spells! Disintegrate anyone?)
* Dex to damage in addition to strength
* Simple and elegant in design.

Honestly Champion of Corellon is only good for at most 2 or 5 levels. If your looking to use it for flavor that is fine, but for optimizing purposes 2 levels seems the way to go. The suggested build gives you full arcane channeling which is the key reason to go Duskblade past  level 5. An example of the usefulness of this:

Full Attack Sequence with a longsword: = +21/+16/+11/+6
With Knowledge Devotion (Assuming you rolled a 36+): = +26/+21/+16/+11
Burning a 5th level spell for Arcane Strike (Free Action / Untyped Bonus): = +31/+26/+21/+16
For simplicities sake let us assume an 18 strength score: = +35/+30/+25/+20
Make the longsword a +5 weapon: = +40/+35/+30/+25
Now let us throw on a Haste-like-effect: = +40/+40/+35/+30/+25

As you can see with only a few simple optimizations your bonus to hit is quite high. But what is the point of this massive bonus to hit if your damage output is minimal? Let us look at your damage output shall we? A quick side note, use your swift action to cast Wraithstrike, your power attack will thank you for it.

Base Weapon: +5 Longsword = 1d8+5 damage (6 min || 13 max damage)
18 Strength: +4 damage = (10 min || 17 max damage)
Wield your longsword in two hands: x1.5 damage = (12 min || 19 max damage)
18 Dexterity: +4 damage = (16 min || 23 max damage)
Knowledge Devotion: +5 insight bonus to damage = (21 min || 27 max damage)
Arcane Strike: +5d4 untyped damage = (25 min || 47 max damage)
Power Attack: -20 to attack for +40 to damage = (65 min || 87 max damage)
Full Arcane Channeling with Vampiric Touch: 10d6 damage = (75 min || 147 max damage)

So with 5 touch attacks at a +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 to hit, each one does a minimum of 75 damage up to 147 maximum damage. If all of them hit that is easily 375-735 damage with one full attack. Also note that you only burned one 2nd, 3rd, and 5th level spell to pull it off. Your a Duskblade! You have a LOT more spells to go through before your ready to call it a day.
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SylvanPrincess

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2011, 03:30:58 PM »
Build 1: Duskblade 13 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Champion of Corellon 2
-Feats-
1. Combat Expertise
2. Combat Casting (Duskblade)
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Arcane Strike
9. Weapon Focus Longsword
12. Mounted Combat
15. Dodge
18. Extra Spell (Insert nice touch spell of 4th level or lower here. Shiver touch works nicely.)
i like this a lot. you are correct when you say only 2 levels is really necessary from an optimizing pov.  i like the level 7 ability too, whichwas why i left that there. but the lev 13 duskblade ability is good also. in addition, keeping this to 2 level of cocl reduces MAD, always good. these are my numbers 16, 15, 15, 15, 13, 5 +6 to distribute among them (not exceeding an 18). so maybe 18, 18, 16, 15, 13, 5. i dont know yet, i HATE having such a low dumpstat.

Quote
*If flaws are allowed, use the following setup:
1. Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Weapon Focus Longsword
2. Combat Casting (Duskblade)
3. Combat Expertise
6. Arcane Strike
9. Mounted Combat
12. Dodge
15. Extra Spell (Wraithstrike. Do not argue, just shut up and do.)
18. Extra Spell (Insert nice touch spell of 4th level or lower here. Shiver touch works nicely.)
no flaws allowed...

Quote
-Notes-
* Full Arcane Channeling
* 18 level Duskblade Casting (5th levels spells! Disintegrate anyone?)
* Dex to damage in addition to strength
* Simple and elegant in design.

Honestly Champion of Corellon is only good for at most 2 or 5 levels. If your looking to use it for flavor that is fine, but for optimizing purposes 2 levels seems the way to go. The suggested build gives you full arcane channeling which is the key reason to go Duskblade past  level 5. An example of the usefulness of this:

Full Attack Sequence with a longsword: = +21/+16/+11/+6
With Knowledge Devotion (Assuming you rolled a 36+): = +26/+21/+16/+11
Burning a 5th level spell for Arcane Strike (Free Action / Untyped Bonus): = +31/+26/+21/+16
For simplicities sake let us assume an 18 strength score: = +35/+30/+25/+20
Make the longsword a +5 weapon: = +40/+35/+30/+25
Now let us throw on a Haste-like-effect: = +40/+40/+35/+30/+25

As you can see with only a few simple optimizations your bonus to hit is quite high. But what is the point of this massive bonus to hit if your damage output is minimal? Let us look at your damage output shall we? A quick side note, use your swift action to cast Wraithstrike, your power attack will thank you for it.

Base Weapon: +5 Longsword = 1d8+5 damage (6 min || 13 max damage)
18 Strength: +4 damage = (10 min || 17 max damage)
Wield your longsword in two hands: x1.5 damage = (12 min || 19 max damage)
18 Dexterity: +4 damage = (16 min || 23 max damage)
Knowledge Devotion: +5 insight bonus to damage = (21 min || 27 max damage)
Arcane Strike: +5d4 untyped damage = (25 min || 47 max damage)
Power Attack: -20 to attack for +40 to damage = (65 min || 87 max damage)
Full Arcane Channeling with Vampiric Touch: 10d6 damage = (75 min || 147 max damage)

So with 5 touch attacks at a +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 to hit, each one does a minimum of 75 damage up to 147 maximum damage. If all of them hit that is easily 375-735 damage with one full attack. Also note that you only burned one 2nd, 3rd, and 5th level spell to pull it off. Your a Duskblade! You have a LOT more spells to go through before your ready to call it a day.


wow thank you! nice work. i cant spend too much time responding, because i am heading to work soon, but ill try to touch on a few points.

abjurant champion... does the duskblade have any decent (or at all) abjurations? or is he in there for his other skills? i really love vamp touch, how much would that heal? also, im not too familiar with duskblade spells (yet), is it a decent list? you mentioned disintegrate...

the only problem i have is that..well, this doesnt fit any need in the party. because im the more experienced player, i usually end up haveing to fill the need left over by everyone just picking what they want. we have 2 paladins (one is a centaur-he always likes doing "funny" things), the other wants to be a hunter of the dead later on. we have a samurai (oa version. he might go into the older master samurai prc later), and we have a druid. to me that leaves a skillmonkey/trap finder, and an arcane user could be psionic)...

so i have been trying to find a good gish to make me feel good about myself lol. i AM bookmarking this write up you did though, it is awesome. the most interesting build ive discovered is rogue/warlock/daggerspell mage, but again, i dont know how powerful warlock invocations can be. i WANT to be a melee gish like youve provided, but im afraid we'll all die from a trap if i cant slip that in there somewhere

skydragonknight

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2011, 05:19:38 PM »
Straight Beguiler is a good trap monkey with solid support spells (Illusions for Buffing/Crowd control, Enchantments to disable opposing beatsticks, Haste!). Since the party seems all good, Vow of Nonviolence would fit well here, giving pretty much all of your spells +4 DC.

Alternatively, if you wanted to have some damage output and don't mind the bookkeeping, Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Unseen Seer+7 would be a good arcane/skill monkey hybrid.

-Master Spellthief and Able Learner at 1st.
-Darkstalker at 3rd. (So Invisibility works vs Blindsense. Level Move Silently after meeting US prereqs)
-Practiced Spellcaster at 6th (Apply after Divination Spell Power, but before Master Spellthief for CL 21 Wizard spells with CL 24 Divination spells).
-Spontaneous Divination ACF.
-Advanced Learning for Hunter's Eye from PHB2...CL 24 = +8d6 Sneak Attack for 24 rounds as a Swift action. With 4d6 regular sneak attack dice and 3d6 sudden raystrike dice, that's 15d6 precision damage for all your ray spells while under Greater Invisibility if your foe has less than True Seeing. If the foe is undead....well, your teammates rock against undead, so they will get a chance to shine. ^^
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Eviltedzies

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2011, 05:23:22 PM »
Factotum 3/Swordsage 7/Champion of Corellon 2/Eternal Blade 8
-Feats-
1. Combat Expertise
3. Dodge
6. Weapon Focus: Longsword
9. Mounted Combat
11. Mobility
12. Adaptive Style
15. Shadow Blade
18. Spring Attack

* Factotum fills your skill junkey roll nicely as well as adding Int to Str/Dex checks and skills.
* Swordsage continues high skill point gains while also giving you more combat options.
* Eternal blade gives GREAT Int synergy and also stacks with swordsage for yoru initiator level.
* Adds Strength, Int, and dexterity x2 to damage.
* 9th level manuevers

If Tomb of Battle is not allowed try....

Factotum 3 / Fighter 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Champion of Corellon 2 / Factotum 5 / Swashbuckler 3
-Feats-
1. Combat Expertise
3. Combat Casting
4. Mounted Combat
5. Dodge
6. Improved Trip
9. Weapon Focus: Longsword
11. Knockdown
12. Combat Reflexes
15. Robilar's Gambit
18. Free Feat, Weapon Finesse*

* Factotum gives great skill money ability and also gives extra standard actions.
* Able to pick and choose your spells each morning.
* Strength, Dex, and Int to damage.
* For shinanigans you could take ranks in Iajutsu Focus
* Able to consistantly threaten foes in melee with Robilar's and Improved Trip. Not to mention you get to add your Int to your trip check.
Light in the Darkness.
Darkness in the Light.
It is truly a neverending cycle of nightmares.
Yet that is what we have been given.
Find your dreams where you may.
And live life like no other.

Mixster

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2011, 07:20:08 PM »
A sublime Chord, Master Spellthief bard! A skill monkey/trapfinder guy that can do awesome arcane damage seems to be just what you are looking for.
Especially since you've got plenty of meat-shields.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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SylvanPrincess

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2011, 08:08:11 PM »
you just dont disappoint do ya!? i like the ideas a lot. 2 things, trying to avoid using tome of battle, the dm isnt familiar with it, and we dont actually have the physical book. another thing is, the dm wants us to stink to 3 classes, with a 4th optional if you can convince him, and no 3rd prc till level 20. gives me something to think about anyway, thanks


SylvanPrincess

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2011, 08:17:10 PM »
A sublime Chord, Master Spellthief bard! A skill monkey/trapfinder guy that can do awesome arcane damage seems to be just what you are looking for.
Especially since you've got plenty of meat-shields.

wheres the awesome arcane damage from, the spells from sublime chord? ive been wanting to play a sc for some time now.

another thing is the warlock idea. warlock/enlightened spirit/holyfire warlock(dm oked version of the hellfire warlock) might be good. still though, no trapfinding.

skydragonknight

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2011, 08:50:27 PM »
Warlock's Detect Magic is better than trapfinding for finding magical traps. The trick would be actually disabling them.

Another interesting one is: Beguiler 6/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter+6 (add 1 level of Beguiler wherever you want for Advanced Learning).

Heightened Legion of Sentinels meets the prereqs for Shadowcraft Mage. Plays like a normal beguiler with support/crowd control until it gains the awesome versatility of shadow illusions. Try to get the gnome requirement waved if possible...the Able Learner feat will save headaches with skill points at higher levels (thankfully casting is Int-based so you should have enough for caster skills +trapfinding +hide...just let one of the paladins be "face").
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Mixster

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2011, 09:05:00 PM »
A sublime Chord, Master Spellthief bard! A skill monkey/trapfinder guy that can do awesome arcane damage seems to be just what you are looking for.
Especially since you've got plenty of meat-shields.

wheres the awesome arcane damage from, the spells from sublime chord? ive been wanting to play a sc for some time now.

another thing is the warlock idea. warlock/enlightened spirit/holyfire warlock(dm oked version of the hellfire warlock) might be good. still though, no trapfinding.

Oh the build is usually based of a wizard UM build. So it requires about 4 classes but some use five.

A simple Build is:
Spellthief 1/Bard 1/Wizard 3/Unseen Seer 3/Ultimate Magus 1/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus +9

Getting hunters eye through expanded knowledge. With your caster level easily going into the 50s you will have a lot of sneak attack damage, and Black Tentacles and Maw of chaos goes crazy. And you almost have full casting as well (since you can pump sublime chord with the last UM levels).
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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X-Codes

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2011, 09:26:46 PM »
Let's not get into Master Spellthief/UM builds.  Those really aren't appropriate for actual games.

Eviltedzies

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2011, 11:44:06 PM »
Race: Human
Build: Factotum 10/Chameleon 10
Build Order: Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/Factotum 2
-Feats-
1. Knowledge Devotion, Able Learner*
3. Font of Inspiration (Online Feat that adds more Inspiration points)
6. Power Attack
9. Font of Inspiration
12. Arcane Strike
15. Font of Inspiration
18. Font of Inspiration (Or Imperious Command for the "Just Die" command.)

-Notables-
* Simple build class wise.
* High number of skill points and ALL skills as class skills.
* Ability to cast up to 6th level Arcane spells.
* Ability to cast up to 6th level Divine spells from ANY list!
* Ability to cast up to  4 arcane spells of 4th level or lower as SLA's & you can switch the chosen spells out every day. (Also SLA's ignore material components which opens up sooo many doors.)
* A floating bonus feat that you can change every day.
* Capability to add +6 to two stats each day. (Or a +12 to one stat!)

You want to be a gish but still have the ability to be a skill monkey? This build gives you all that and a bag of solid gold potatoe chips.
Need a higher BAB? Memorize Divine Power.
Want to hit like a train? Memorize Greater Mighty Wallop and Wraithstrike. Then go to town by full power attacking with any blunt object.
Need to disarm traps? Oh wait... you have trapfinding and more skill points than you know what to do with.
Hell you can use your floating bonus feat to pick up any of the Craft X Magic Item feats for a day and craft whatever the hell you wanted.
Light in the Darkness.
Darkness in the Light.
It is truly a neverending cycle of nightmares.
Yet that is what we have been given.
Find your dreams where you may.
And live life like no other.

SylvanPrincess

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2011, 11:47:26 PM »
Let's not get into Master Spellthief/UM builds.  Those really aren't appropriate for actual games.

lol! why not?

Havok4

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 12:56:46 AM »
Let's not get into Master Spellthief/UM builds.  Those really aren't appropriate for actual games.

lol! why not?

Because you end up with an insane caster level, by insane I mean that with proper optimization you can have a caster level in the thousands. Moderate optimization can easily get you a CL in the 40s.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 12:58:29 AM by Havok4 »

SylvanPrincess

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2011, 01:31:50 AM »
how? seems cool. is there a link to a write up somewhere?

Havok4

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Re: [help] Abjurant Champion/Champion of Corellon
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2011, 01:27:05 PM »