Author Topic: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1  (Read 22570 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2011, 09:48:46 PM »
You're missing Cloudy Conjuration under feats.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Empirate

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2011, 07:10:42 AM »
An Incantatrix3 can Persist that reserve feat Elemental.

Summon Elemental (Complete Mage 47) states, "The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon
monster spell."

No she can't. The summoned creature may act like it was summoned by a spell. But it wasn't summoned by a spell. You can't use Metamagic Effect: Persist on a creature (however spell-summoned-like it may act), you must use it on a spell that is currently in effect. There's no spell in use here, only a supernatural ability. Very few things can influence the effects of a supernatural ability, and a metamagic feat is not one of them.

carnivore

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2011, 08:38:05 AM »
another point for your sample build .... if you add Dragonborn to Strongheart Halfling.... you lose the bonus feat, just as if your add it to Human

 :D

Endarire

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2011, 10:13:09 PM »
Player's Guide to Faerun 62:

Metamagic Effect (Su): At 3rd level, an incantatrix can attempt to apply a metamagic feat she possesses to a persistent spell effect that is already in place.

I argue that the reserve Elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell.
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Empirate

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2011, 03:53:24 PM »
I don't think your argument holds water. However, I can't make it much clearer than I already have. I think I've got a convincing point, but others may lean towards your interpretation - let's leave it at that. Sometimes you can't really resolve an issue such as this.

Di Bastet

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 11:53:31 PM »
The Good: Good guide. Good options in one place.

The Bad: The tricks don't work raw, and surely no DM would even allow such liberal interpretation as to apply a metamagic feat to a supernatural ability. Everyone seems to agree that your interpretation is very unreasonable, but this doesn't take the merit of the guide.

The Improve It: I feel that this guide could contain the other, more exotic elemental. Like Taint Elemental, the Paraelemental, and other I'm sure I don't remember now.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2011, 01:46:52 AM »
You cannot Persist creatures summoned with reserve feats. I specifically told you this already, but it's still in this handbook for some reason.
Fell Drain doesn't work like that.
Invisible Spell doesn't work like that.
The Living Holocaust is not able to be cast that early. It does not qualify as a small elemental. AKA, it doesn't work like that.

You included a homebrew feat in a handbook? One that you made up yourself specifically for this type of character? WTF?

Player's Guide to Faerun 62:

Metamagic Effect (Su): At 3rd level, an incantatrix can attempt to apply a metamagic feat she possesses to a persistent spell effect that is already in place.

I argue that the reserve Elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell.
The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell. However, as described by this exact quote the elemental was not summoned by a spell. Therefore, it cannot be made persistent because it is not a spell.

Hi Welcome

Fail

Normally I'd appreciate the effort in a handbook, but when one spreads so much misinformation and objectively fails at applying the rules, I cannot do so. You didn't even bother to explain HOW you planned to make your summons useful. The Summon Elemental reserve feat can be great for utility, but how to utilize said utility was completely missed throughout your posts.

I give this handbook an F.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:51:20 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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snakeman830

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2011, 01:51:08 AM »
Invisible Spell doesn't work like that.
Actually, I think it does.  I agree with everything else you just said, but Invisible Spell clearly wasn't intended to work the way it does with Summoning spells.  It really is effectively Greater Invisibility on all your summons.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
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Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
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If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2011, 01:52:36 AM »
Invisible Spell doesn't work like that.
Actually, I think it does.  I agree with everything else you just said, but Invisible Spell clearly wasn't intended to work the way it does with Summoning spells.  It really is effectively Greater Invisibility on all your summons.

I added a little bit more, sorry about that. I suppose that measure could be debated. I still stick strongly to my other statements.
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Empirate

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2011, 02:19:06 PM »
Invisible Spell doesn't work like that.
Actually, I think it does.  I agree with everything else you just said, but Invisible Spell clearly wasn't intended to work the way it does with Summoning spells.  It really is effectively Greater Invisibility on all your summons.

A handbook is intended to give some pointers that might work in a real campaign. The OP states that Abrupt Jaunt might be difficult to get by your DM. How is your DM going to approve Invisible Spell making summoned monsters invisible? Really, most of the tricks in this handbook either simply don't work by RAW, or require such a lenient DM as to make them another instance of "Please DM, may I, pretty pretty please? It would be so cooool!"

BeholderSlayer

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2011, 11:59:41 AM »
Invisible Spell doesn't work like that.
Actually, I think it does.  I agree with everything else you just said, but Invisible Spell clearly wasn't intended to work the way it does with Summoning spells.  It really is effectively Greater Invisibility on all your summons.

A handbook is intended to give some pointers that might work in a real campaign. The OP states that Abrupt Jaunt might be difficult to get by your DM. How is your DM going to approve Invisible Spell making summoned monsters invisible? Really, most of the tricks in this handbook either simply don't work by RAW, or require such a lenient DM as to make them another instance of "Please DM, may I, pretty pretty please? It would be so cooool!"
Exactly. There is so much garbage advice that just flat out doesn't work the way it is described that it's astounding. Gross misinterpretation of the rules is the OP's modus operandi, however, including fictitious things like the "Ultimate Magus Quick-Step" that doesn't actually work at all.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2011, 04:15:27 PM »
another point for your sample build ....
the fire variant you link doesn't apply to halflings. Only elves have the option to change the stats as so.

It really is effectively Greater Invisibility on all your summons.
mmm how do we know they stay invis after attacking? I understand the invis upon summoning, but why must they stay invisible as per the greater version? Even with this logic-nerf invis summons are still crazy-good!
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snakeman830

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2011, 08:46:25 PM »
It really is effectively Greater Invisibility on all your summons.
mmm how do we know they stay invis after attacking? I understand the invis upon summoning, but why must they stay invisible as per the greater version? Even with this logic-nerf invis summons are still crazy-good!
Probably because the Invisible Spell feat doesn't say that the spell becomes visible after taking effect (which would ruin the whole point of the feat).  I will definitely always houserule it to be not applicable to summoning spells.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Endarire

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Re: LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2011, 09:27:29 PM »
For Elemental races, I derived their stats.  Fire races get +2 INT and -2 CHA compared to standard.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"