Author Topic: What harm may come of this?  (Read 2569 times)

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kalaskaagathas

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What harm may come of this?
« on: January 04, 2011, 02:47:37 AM »
What harm may come of giving Bards access to ninth level spells without forcing them to go through the whole process of becoming a Sublime Chord?

I'm working on a variant Bard, based on the Pathfinder Bard, with some minor changes (and the major change to spellcasting).  They would get CHA to attack and damage at level six, 20% miss chance at level nine (increasing by 10% at levels twelve, fifteen, and eighteen, for a cumulative 50% miss chance), and eventually an extra standard action (probably at level sixteen, though it might be at level twenty).  Additionally, I would change Bardic Knowledge (or at least the Pathfinder version) into Bardic Knack, which would work the same way as PF Bardic Knowledge but for all skills.

The big change would be to casting, of course, in giving Bards ninth level spells.  They would gain them at seventeenth level, but have a limited number of spells known (as normal).  I would give them six spells known of every level save eighth and ninth, which would receive five spells known.  I am also considering another change - I would either give them the ability to trade out one spell known per day for another spell of the same or lower level from their spellbook (which would revert to the original spell after eight hours rest), increasing to two spells per day at seventh level, then three at fourteenth level, and finally four spells per day at twentieth level; or I would give them a "prepared slot" which they could "prepare" one spell of each level from their spell book which would add it to their list of spells known for that day.  If I went with the latter, I would reduce their total number of spells known by one per level (five of levels zero through seven, four of levels eight and nine).

Does this invalidate the Sorcerer (specifically with Pathfinder Bloodlines) as a class?  Does this make the Wizard unnecessary?  I'm trying to bring the Bard up to the level of the 3.5 Druid, capable in melee combat, out of combat skills, and being a full spellcaster, but I'm worried that another spontaneous arcane full caster might step on the Sorcerer's toes.  I also don't want straight Bard to be the answer, just an answer.

So what do you think?

Saeomon

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Re: What harm may come of this?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2011, 03:21:26 AM »
To answer the question posed in the subject line of this thread, you run the risk of breaking the game.

So what do you think?

To answer this question: the result is incredibly overpowered. If you like, I can count the ways, but it's really self-evident.

Rebel7284

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Re: What harm may come of this?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 11:03:34 AM »
So wait, you combine the swiftblade and sublime chord into a single base class?  The standard actions alone push it to tier 1.  Remove those and you're "just" tier 2
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Benly

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Re: What harm may come of this?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 11:24:47 AM »
Level 9 spells and an extra standard action per round is pretty dang hardcore. Hell, just spontaneous sorc/wiz casting with the ability to trade out spells known day-to-day is insanely good - it's a better spellcasting mechanic than any of the T1-2 classes except the Spirit Shaman, and unlike the SS it's using the best spell list instead of the worst.

Although now that it comes up, we talking about full sorc/wiz list access at higher levels like Sublime Chord has, or would you be making an extended version of the Bard spell list? If it's the latter, and if it's sufficiently restricted, this might be workable instead of ludicrously good. It would still be rather strong, though - extra standard actions are Serious Business.

kalaskaagathas

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Re: What harm may come of this?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 03:56:14 PM »
To answer the question posed in the subject line of this thread, you run the risk of breaking the game.

Well, I'm trying to make a Tier 1 Bard, so that kinda goes with the territory.

So wait, you combine the swiftblade and sublime chord into a single base class?  The standard actions alone push it to tier 1.  Remove those and you're "just" tier 2

Level 9 spells and an extra standard action per round is pretty dang hardcore. Hell, just spontaneous sorc/wiz casting with the ability to trade out spells known day-to-day is insanely good - it's a better spellcasting mechanic than any of the T1-2 classes except the Spirit Shaman, and unlike the SS it's using the best spell list instead of the worst.

Although now that it comes up, we talking about full sorc/wiz list access at higher levels like Sublime Chord has, or would you be making an extended version of the Bard spell list? If it's the latter, and if it's sufficiently restricted, this might be workable instead of ludicrously good. It would still be rather strong, though - extra standard actions are Serious Business.

Ok, so drop the extra standard action, and does it become more workable?  And I haven't decided on the spell list, it would probably be more limited than the whole Sorc/Wiz list, but I could go either way.

Saeomon

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Re: What harm may come of this?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 04:23:00 PM »
To answer the question posed in the subject line of this thread, you run the risk of breaking the game.

Well, I'm trying to make a Tier 1 Bard, so that kinda goes with the territory.

So wait, you combine the swiftblade and sublime chord into a single base class?  The standard actions alone push it to tier 1.  Remove those and you're "just" tier 2

Level 9 spells and an extra standard action per round is pretty dang hardcore. Hell, just spontaneous sorc/wiz casting with the ability to trade out spells known day-to-day is insanely good - it's a better spellcasting mechanic than any of the T1-2 classes except the Spirit Shaman, and unlike the SS it's using the best spell list instead of the worst.

Although now that it comes up, we talking about full sorc/wiz list access at higher levels like Sublime Chord has, or would you be making an extended version of the Bard spell list? If it's the latter, and if it's sufficiently restricted, this might be workable instead of ludicrously good. It would still be rather strong, though - extra standard actions are Serious Business.

Ok, so drop the extra standard action, and does it become more workable?  And I haven't decided on the spell list, it would probably be more limited than the whole Sorc/Wiz list, but I could go either way.

In my opinion, this is what you should do:

Drop the extra standard action class feature. That's just too good.
Drop the free concealment class feature. That mimics feats only available at epic.
Drop the Charisma bonuses to hit and damage. This isn't Order of the Stick and you're not making a Dashing Swordsman.
Focus on 9th level spells and spells known.

Give the Bard a progression of spells-per-day similar to the Battle Sorcerer variant from UA and a spells known list similar to the Beguiler. The class would know all spells on the list. This would have to be a very tight, very focused list. These would be spontaneous-cast spells.

THEN throw in that idea about swapping out spells from a spellbook. I'd say once per day for each level of spells, the Bard could refer to his or her spellbook and prepare a spell in one of his or her spell slots. The spell would have to be of equal or lower level. Obviously these would be prepared spells and could be drawn from any arcane casting list. This fits the "jack-of-all-trades" aspect of the Bard class.

I think the above, plus the Bard's medium BAB, d6 hit die, weapon and armor proficiencies, skill points, ability to cast in armor, and two good saves would put it in Tier 1. High Tier 2 at the lowest.

kalaskaagathas

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Re: What harm may come of this?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 04:40:40 PM »
In my opinion, this is what you should do:

Drop the extra standard action class feature. That's just too good.
Ok.

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Drop the free concealment class feature. That mimics feats only available at epic.
This was done to give the Bard defensive abilities along the lines of what a Druid could get by wildshaping.  Is there a better way to do that?

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Drop the Charisma bonuses to hit and damage. This isn't Order of the Stick and you're not making a Dashing Swordsman.
This was done to give the Bard offensive abilities comparable to what a Druid could get by wildshaping.  Again, do you have a better way to do that?

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Focus on 9th level spells and spells known.

Give the Bard a progression of spells-per-day similar to the Battle Sorcerer variant from UA and a spells known list similar to the Beguiler. The class would know all spells on the list. This would have to be a very tight, very focused list. These would be spontaneous-cast spells.
That is basically what I was thinking, as far as the spells/day goes.  The trouble with giving them a spells known list akin to the Beguiler, especially off a "very tight, very focused list," is this directly contravenes the idea of the Bard being a "Jack of All Trades".

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THEN throw in that idea about swapping out spells from a spellbook. I'd say once per day for each level of spells, the Bard could refer to his or her spellbook and prepare a spell in one of his or her spell slots. The spell would have to be of equal or lower level. Obviously these would be prepared spells and could be drawn from any arcane casting list. This fits the "jack-of-all-trades" aspect of the Bard class.
That might make the fixed list workable, but I still don't like the idea of a fixed list for the Bard.  It strikes me as unnecessarily limiting.  The Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer are all tier 3, right?  I'm trying to make a Bard who is firmly tier one, and comparable to the Druid, so the fixed list may not be suitable for the class.

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I think the above, plus the Bard's medium BAB, d6 hit die, weapon and armor proficiencies, skill points, ability to cast in armor, and two good saves would put it in Tier 1. High Tier 2 at the lowest.
I was going to give this Bard a d8 hit die (as Pathfinder does with its Bard) as that would make it equal to the Druid, but I guess a d6 would work, since it gets Arcane spellcasting.

Saeomon

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Re: What harm may come of this?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 05:10:18 PM »
Quote
Drop the free concealment class feature. That mimics feats only available at epic.
This was done to give the Bard defensive abilities along the lines of what a Druid could get by wildshaping.  Is there a better way to do that?

Depending on the spells you add to the Bard's list, its defensive abilities could be very good. Plus, with the proposed ability to prepare any arcane spell available to it, it could use those slots for defensive spells, if needed.

But, if you want to give it a class feature that mimics concealment, tie it to the Bardic Music ability. Make it use up one of the daily uses and last for only as long as the Bard sings/performs. I envision the ability working a bit like Entropic Shield. The Bard raises sonic vibrations around his body which waver around him, making him harder to hit.

Alternatively, let the Bard mimic certain defensive spells using Bardic music. E.g., let the Bard mimic Mirror Image.

Quote
Quote
Drop the Charisma bonuses to hit and damage. This isn't Order of the Stick and you're not making a Dashing Swordsman.
This was done to give the Bard offensive abilities comparable to what a Druid could get by wildshaping.  Again, do you have a better way to do that?

Overall, I found this to be the least game-breaking change. Keep it.

Quote
Quote
Focus on 9th level spells and spells known.

Give the Bard a progression of spells-per-day similar to the Battle Sorcerer variant from UA and a spells known list similar to the Beguiler. The class would know all spells on the list. This would have to be a very tight, very focused list. These would be spontaneous-cast spells.
That is basically what I was thinking, as far as the spells/day goes.  The trouble with giving them a spells known list akin to the Beguiler, especially off a "very tight, very focused list," is this directly contravenes the idea of the Bard being a "Jack of All Trades".

Depends on the spells you give to the class. Now that I think of it, "very tight, very focused" isn't really what I intended to convey. Allow me to amend what I said: make it a short but diverse list. That's really what I meant.

Pick a few spells that are highly versatile, and which are representative of each school. Put those on the class' list.

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I think the above, plus the Bard's medium BAB, d6 hit die, weapon and armor proficiencies, skill points, ability to cast in armor, and two good saves would put it in Tier 1. High Tier 2 at the lowest.
I was going to give this Bard a d8 hit die (as Pathfinder does with its Bard) as that would make it equal to the Druid, but I guess a d6 would work, since it gets Arcane spellcasting.

D8 or d6 doesn't really matter. I don't like the way 3.5 makes you roll for HP. It actually screws you over for having a higher hit die, since the probability of your getting max HP is that much more remote.

kalaskaagathas

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Re: What harm may come of this?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2011, 05:57:23 PM »
Quote
Drop the free concealment class feature. That mimics feats only available at epic.
This was done to give the Bard defensive abilities along the lines of what a Druid could get by wildshaping.  Is there a better way to do that?

Depending on the spells you add to the Bard's list, its defensive abilities could be very good. Plus, with the proposed ability to prepare any arcane spell available to it, it could use those slots for defensive spells, if needed.

But, if you want to give it a class feature that mimics concealment, tie it to the Bardic Music ability. Make it use up one of the daily uses and last for only as long as the Bard sings/performs. I envision the ability working a bit like Entropic Shield. The Bard raises sonic vibrations around his body which waver around him, making him harder to hit.

Alternatively, let the Bard mimic certain defensive spells using Bardic music. E.g., let the Bard mimic Mirror Image.
Rereading my OP, I realized I didn't say that the miss chance would be based off Bardic Music (same with the extra Standard).  It would be something like you propose, I think, where you activate it and get its benefit as long you spend a free action to continue your 'Battle Dance' or whatever.  The trouble with that would be you wouldn't be able to use it and IC at the same time.  Maybe it would be an exception to the 'One Music at a Time' rule.

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Quote
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Drop the Charisma bonuses to hit and damage. This isn't Order of the Stick and you're not making a Dashing Swordsman.
This was done to give the Bard offensive abilities comparable to what a Druid could get by wildshaping.  Again, do you have a better way to do that?

Overall, I found this to be the least game-breaking change. Keep it.
Sounds good, it stays.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Focus on 9th level spells and spells known.

Give the Bard a progression of spells-per-day similar to the Battle Sorcerer variant from UA and a spells known list similar to the Beguiler. The class would know all spells on the list. This would have to be a very tight, very focused list. These would be spontaneous-cast spells.
That is basically what I was thinking, as far as the spells/day goes.  The trouble with giving them a spells known list akin to the Beguiler, especially off a "very tight, very focused list," is this directly contravenes the idea of the Bard being a "Jack of All Trades".

Depends on the spells you give to the class. Now that I think of it, "very tight, very focused" isn't really what I intended to convey. Allow me to amend what I said: make it a short but diverse list. That's really what I meant.

Pick a few spells that are highly versatile, and which are representative of each school. Put those on the class' list.
I'm more open to a diverse list, especially since this Bard gets the ability to swap spells known daily, but I still think it should be something the players can pick.  Maybe giving them the spells known of the Sorcerer, rather than the higher number of spells known I proposed initially, would help?

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I think the above, plus the Bard's medium BAB, d6 hit die, weapon and armor proficiencies, skill points, ability to cast in armor, and two good saves would put it in Tier 1. High Tier 2 at the lowest.
I was going to give this Bard a d8 hit die (as Pathfinder does with its Bard) as that would make it equal to the Druid, but I guess a d6 would work, since it gets Arcane spellcasting.

D8 or d6 doesn't really matter. I don't like the way 3.5 makes you roll for HP. It actually screws you over for having a higher hit die, since the probability of your getting max HP is that much more remote.
The groups I typically play with just use max HP/HD for that very reason, but like you say, if you're rolling for HP it's only a +1 on average, and not too game breaking.