Author Topic: Ghost Template Class Issue  (Read 2759 times)

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jolt

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Ghost Template Class Issue
« on: January 04, 2011, 12:37:21 AM »
To be even more clearererer, this is what we're talking about.

So I've come across a DM that said that you can't take this template partially without completing it. And that this is by RAW. He also said you have to take the racial classes on consecutive levels. It's not that I don't believe him, but if this were true, wouldn't the many ghost builds (which dip for lvl1-4) get shot down as being illegal? I'd like to see some strong opinions about this with rules backing them up.

Note: A DM is always right, if he wants to see this true, he will probably just houserule it. But I'm talking about pure RAW here.

Agita

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2011, 12:57:15 AM »
From the first article in that series, establishing the rules of template classes:

Quote
Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a
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nijineko

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 03:03:25 AM »
it's all right there in the rules. course, like you said, the dm (re)makes the rules as they see fit.
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DaDude9211

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 06:02:27 AM »
Jolt brought me here to discuss a point, so I might as well air it out.

"Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession." does not necessarily mean they are not required to complete the template class altogether.

The key phrase here is 'in uninterrupted succession'. This is a prepositional phrase, if I am not mistaken. "Shoot him." and "Shoot him if he pulls a weapon out." Are different sentences, carrying different complete thoughts. If you gave someone the second set of instructions in written orders, and he immediately shot the man because 'you said to shoot him', I don't think you would feel he had done your orders as written.


stranglebat

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 06:26:42 AM »
What if you dont complete the Ghost levels until your character is say level 40? There are rules for up to those levels and it doesn't say you have to take them all pre epic.


It really is the DMs call, my wife is having to play a +5 lvl adj off the bat because to the DM "It doesn't make sense being half a ghost". Personally i see it as the evolution of a spirit and maybe a ghost needs to be a ghost for a few hundred years before becoming all he is meant to be in the end.

 No one would have this issue if the last level didn't suck so much however so maybe as a DM change the progression and have it have one of the more key abilities or stat increases at the end level to make it more worthwhile.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 06:32:27 AM by stranglebat »

Agita

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 07:14:52 AM »
What if you dont complete the Ghost levels until your character is say level 40? There are rules for up to those levels and it doesn't say you have to take them all pre epic.
Exactly. It doesn't say you don't have to complete the class at all, but it also doesn't say you have to take the whole class within the level range allowed in the campaign. So if we have a lvl 20 build with Ghost 1 in there, we can add "Ghost +4" in our minds somewhere between level 21 and level 42.
In essence, this is a "doesn't say I can't" vs. "doesn't say you can" thing. Or rather, "doesn't say I have to" vs. "doesn't say you don't have to".

And that's not even accounting for what happens when you bring LA Buyoff into the equation.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 07:24:15 AM »
And that's not even accounting for what happens when you bring LA Buyoff into the equation.

I shouldn't have tried to wrap my head around that: It's like setting up two portals so the companion cube never stops falling.


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Agita

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 07:32:18 AM »
And that's not even accounting for what happens when you bring LA Buyoff into the equation.

I shouldn't have tried to wrap my head around that: It's like setting up two portals so the companion cube never stops falling.
Then when it hits terminal velocity, you open another portal with the right timing and launch it at the unsuspecting turrets!
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NiteCyper

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2011, 01:14:04 AM »
And that's not even accounting for what happens when you bring LA Buyoff into the equation.

I shouldn't have tried to wrap my head around that.
Agita references:
Each level in a template class increases the character's level adjustment by +1, just as would a level of any other character class.
I ignore this. A level of any other character class increases not the character's level adjustment by +1, or else Reducing Level Adjustments becomes impossible.

To wit:
Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.
If a character's class levels increase the character's level adjustment, the total of a character's class levels would practically never reach three times his level adjustment, because if X = the total of a character's class levels, and the character's level adjustment is = X+template LA, then it will practically forever be that X =/= 3*(X+template LA).

Check my math.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 01:27:01 AM by NiteCyper »
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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 09:37:15 PM »
What if you dont complete the Ghost levels until your character is say level 40? There are rules for up to those levels and it doesn't say you have to take them all pre epic.
Bingo.
Quote
It really is the DMs call, my wife is having to play a +5 lvl adj off the bat because to the DM "It doesn't make sense being half a ghost". Personally i see it as the evolution of a spirit and maybe a ghost needs to be a ghost for a few hundred years before becoming all he is meant to be in the end.
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Echoes

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 09:47:06 PM »
Each level in a template class increases the character's level adjustment by +1, just as would a level of any other character class.

That is possibly the most retarded thing I've read all week, and I've been reading posts by an AD&D grognard over on TGD. Class levels =/= level adjustment; that's the whole point of LA. You aren't getting actual level advancement, instead you get an ECL tax because you are supposedly more awesome (hint: you're not).

Quote
If a character's class levels increase the character's level adjustment, the total of a character's class levels would practically never reach three times his level adjustment, because if X = the total of a character's class levels, and the character's level adjustment is = X+template LA, then it will practically forever be that X =/= 3*(X+template LA).

Check my math.

Yeah, X =/= X + 3. Again, whoever wrote that little blurb from the Template Class thing was an idiot.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2011, 09:48:48 PM »
I'm pretty sure that they missed   words there. 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 09:54:55 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Ghost Template Class Issue
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2011, 07:57:18 AM »
I'm pretty sure that they mixed words there.
ftfy. Its clear the comma makes the bad part an aside. Its not part of the rules, just like referencing class abilities by the PHB class they first appeared in.

WotC doesn't have employees who understand ECL. This is a fact, like that most every race or template ever made is overinflated.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 07:59:46 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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