Author Topic: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....  (Read 4499 times)

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Senevri

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Preface:
I've been working on this less gamist archetype spread of Hero, Adventurer, Mage, Mystic spread of late.
It's the Mage side which has been causing me most problems, as I like these sort of iterative updates, and not rehashing ideas too much.
There's a rather tough question in pondering what a Mage should be allowed to do. Reducing it into Words of Power concept, or something Ars Magica - ish, while certainly workable ( I've even done quite a bit of work to check how various effects would scale, in order to rewrite ALL spells, if necessary ) IS a rather clinical approach, lacking the wonderment and insanity of high wizardry magic. Still, that was what I was puttering at, until inspiration took me.

Concept:Crunch:
We even have a handy-dandy built-in limiter for a mage's abilities: The CR system. It's true that it's horribly unbalanced in spots, but it sort of self-balances in that if the DM can throw a horrible monster at the players, the Mages can throw equally horrible powers back at the monsters. I'm still puttering on the crunch, but the basic idea is that a single spell roughly equates to what a creature could do as a standard action. So, a 1st-level mage could, for an example, animate tiny or small objects, (with concentration, off the top of my head ), use the Burn attack of a Fire Elemental, and so forth. Quite a bit more powerful than standard 1st level stuff in many ways, but on the other hand, nothing that wouldn't be a fair challenge to a 1st level party, according to CR. Valid types would be various Outsiders and Elementals, primarily. Then Undead and Fey, and eventually Dragons.
If the game wishes to utilize Spells, then those spell that would be available to creatures of that particular CR would be valid... Do note that actually summoning one's spell-granting patron would be a major, major boon. There may be some tweaking that needs to be done, so that celestials and fiends require a higher level or are more costly and so forth.  

Charisma is necessary for actually contracting a service, and Intelligence helps in reducing the cost. Spellcraft is a design and analysis skill used in determining spells and their cost. Arcana is used to _know_ about the existence of a creature. ( and it's, y'know, Origin, Nature, Title, True Name )

Fluff:
Practically writes itself. By knowing the Origin and Nature, as well as the Title and in best came, the True Name of a creature, a wizard can draw upon it's power, paying with the coin called Magic for services rendered. Grimoires describe the Origin, Nature and Titles of creatures willing to grant powers, and what powers those might be. At the low level, a caster draws upon the smallest of elemental spirits. At later, they may draw from specific patrons, at the highest levels making requests to specific demon lords, even. ( So pazuzu grants ALL wish spells? :D )

Something like that. This is way more complicated than the Hero stuff, so I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject before I try to build my Tome of Magic - ish drop-in 3.X class....

Nytemare3701

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's bot Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2010, 05:19:37 PM »
Let me get this straight:

1.Pact Magic based on monster CR, gaining creature abilities,
2.Truename style, without the awful skill based casting

Sounds good.

How about this:

Int based check to know the creature abilities, Cha based check to bind them? Words of power are the backup casting mechanic, and some give bonuses to binding.

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 06:15:58 PM »
I guess you could describe it as a limited, free-form pact magic based on standard monsters instead of vestiges?

Yes, int-based checks to even _know_ of monsters, and ideally, say, using spellcraft to design complex spells. Cha would be used in contracting and in measuring casting capacity... although my idea is that Cha helps in raw power department, while Int helps you use whatever power you have more efficiently.

In one sense it's like M:tG, except instead of summoning monsters, you're summoning their powers. Hm. Maybe downgrading binding / ally spells could be used as a base, to start working on the crunch?
Looking at various types, Elementals < Fiends < Celestials, as far as power goes.

It also justifies spell 'scribing' costs better - instead of writing really expensive text very slowly, you spend the day summoning a creature and forging an agreement with them.

Nytemare3701

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2010, 07:04:48 PM »
What about divine power?
Good Gods<Elder Evils<Outer Gods

Good Gods bring RP restrictions to the table.

Elder Evils would have a malconvoker style to them, but have mechanical backlash effects

Outer Gods bring major Mechanical and RP risks.

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2010, 08:36:22 PM »
Well, you get God Magic, Fey Magic, Dragon Magic... even Abomination Magic potentially. However, the even a Demigod has a rather hefty CR... basically, it's harder to spec using loosely-statted creatures.

Basically, God Magic is legendarily powerful stuff. Most 'divine' or 'white' magic comes from angels, archons and the like.
Powerful Aberrations might grant interesting magic, too.

Avatar of Cas is CR 25, Regeneration 5, DR 15/2 types, Tremorsense 60, 7 attacks, speed, flight, Heat ( 2d6 fire on hit + grapple per round ) , and Ranger abilities. Oh, and spells, SLAs and Wish.

I think the type of the power needs to count into calculations, with EX abilities being cheapest (so, at 1st level, most contractor-type mages would access elemental EX abilities. (various masteries pop out immediately) Feys have 'amphibious', 'wild empathy'. animated objects are the most versatile.. and of course, even a sorcerer's apprentice might handle animated objects. :D

Trying out rule-of-thumb guidelines... level 1-6 EX, level 7-12 SU, level 11-18 SP, level 19-24 actual spellcasting? I really need to take a hard look at binders before going too far....
Stacking, and doubling, so a 5th level mage could use up to.. 4 EX abilities of CR 1 creatures or 1 from a CR 5 creature? hm.

At what level could you actually summon a small elemental? at 5th, so a summon is... probably CR +4 levels. (meaning, you could summon a CR 1/6 at level 1).




Nytemare3701

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2011, 07:12:50 AM »
Straight from the top of my head...Favored enemy style? Choose a creature type every X levels, follow that progression

1: Favored Binding
2:
3: Favored Knowledge
4:
5: Favored Binding 2, Improved Binding 1
6:
7: Favored Knowledge
8:
9:
10: Favored Binding 3, Improved Binding 2
11: Binding Mastery (2 creature types)
12: Favored Knowledge
13:
14:
15:Favored Binding 4, Improved Binding 3
16:
17:Favored Knowledge
18:
19:
20:Favored Binding 5, Binding Mastery (3 creature types)

Favored Binding (su? ex?): at level 1 a Pact Magician chooses a creature type. He gets a +2 bonus to Charisma checks involving that creature type. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, a Pact Magician may choose an additional creature type, or add the bonus to the same type.

Favored Knowledge: At level 3 a Pact Magician gains greater insight into the abilities of her favored creature, giving her a +2 bonus to knowledge checks based on that creature.

Improved Binding: At 5th level, a Pact Magician gains the ability to bind multiple abilities from a single pact creature. An additional ability may be bound per pact at each Improved Binding level.

Binding Mastery: At 11th level, a Pact Magician gains the ability to bind multiple creature types at once. Choose 2 of your favored creatures. You may make a pact with both at once, gaining all bonuses and penalties that you would have gained from binding them separately. This ability increases to 3 creatures at 20th level. Note: This stacks with the Improved binding ability, meaning a level 11 Pact Magician could bind 2 creatures, from up to 2 creature types, and gain up to 3 abilities from each. A level 20 Pact Magician could bind up to 3 creatures, from up to 3 creature types, gaining up to 4 abilities from each.

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2011, 09:53:23 AM »
Creature type... Yeah.
Thinking of it, for the most part, it's creatures with either an elemental or alignment subtype - drawing power off Aasimars seems a bit odd, and dragons have elemental subtype. Feys are an exception, I think, and definitely getting magic from fey courts is thematic - even WotC made a prestige class based on it... and there ARE some magical beasts I'd really want to include; most of them are included by elemental or alignment subtypes....

So! Alignment and elemental subtypes; Incorporeal and Extraplanar undead; ( extraplanar in general is a good category )
I also keep coming back to Constructs - since they're built with magic, and the usual mage hand type stuff works via that.

Hm. So, looking at CRs, generally speaking start with outsiders, elementals and fey available.... I think picking an elemental subtype as slightly increased in power might be worth it.

I wouldn't go with Pacts specifically - once you're contracted with something, you're contracted with it, instead of consistently having all abilities available, your spells draw upon a single aspect / power the creature grants. That being said, there could be a visual display - more power, the more obvious it is and so forth. So, someone who's an advanced, fire type focused caster might have red irises or red hair, and so forth. Skin tone, hair and eye color changes would be reasonable displays. An exotic type, such as aberrations or dragons, might include a further physical / permanent display.

For practical reasons, certain types wouldn't become available until later - say, Dragons at 3-5 and so forth? 

Would a simple mechanical rule of 'while drawing upon a creature's power you act as that creature during that moment' work? Or would it break really fast? If you must pay for any action with a resource (some sort of a mana system?) I think it could work like that, too.

I think it's important the character gets a theme of some sort - at first level, only elemental types are available, so maybe push the type specialization 'til level... 5-6, since at that point you have dragons and good outsiders available.

I was thinking of utilizing a couple of numbers and tables - say, instead of hard limit on ex/su and so forth, those would require a higher magic power output, magic power using a pattern of character level + charisma modifier + misc bonuses, and a SU ability would require 6 magic power, f'r ex. You still couldn't access creatures with higher CR than your level, but what abilities you could get from those, would depend on your skill and power.

Each spell would be designed separately, setting parameters of casting time, duration, range, complexity, and requiring a spellcraft check DC... 15+CR of patron creature. A failure increases the power cost by 1,  by every 2 you go below the DC, and every 5 you go over the DC decreases the power cost by 1, to a minimum of 1. Spell design would only require an investment in time, and could be done as a part of an adventuring day, but in that case, it'd take twice as long. I could see an appropriate knowledge check granting a synergy bonus, as could knowing a true name of some creature.

Getting access to types... Hm, fluff-wise, there's a ritual for an open-ended petition for certain extraplanar creatures -- f'r ex, sending one to the plane of fire, you might attract the attentiton of a powerful King of Fire Creatures type, who'd grant you permission to draw upon the least of their servants.... or somesuch.

_potential_ access to new creatures could be granted as a treasure reward - perhaps a tome documents enough of the name and origin of some creature that you can draw upon their power, even with flawed information.

Still not sure on casting opportunity costs - it should be trivial for every day stuff, but meaningful for more powerful ones - increased casting time works fine, for the most part, as long as it doesn't increase duration of an effect too fast.

Nytemare3701

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2011, 04:28:33 PM »
I was thinking of it being similar to a totemist, but instead of shaping soulmelds, you make a pact at the beginning of the day for a single ability from a creature. As your level increases, The CR you are able to make pacts with (and the number of pacts you can make per day) increase as well. The two main mechanics would be "Pact Slots" (AKA pacts per day) and "Ability Slots" (AKA abilities per pact).
Maybe Knowledge (relevant type) 15+CR to have a creature available, and 10+CR CHA check to bind it? You aren't really binding the creature, you are trading magical power for one of its abilities.

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2011, 04:50:07 PM »
I suffer from an ailment; I create great walls of text.

Yes, there is a similarity to totemists; but I wouldn't go with daily pacts - you either have a contract with a creature or you don't, for the most part. A year and a day would be a typical contract time, in fiction, although 'for one day' could be a smart way for a DM to try out allowing a creature - if it's too powerful, it won't agree to further pacts.

What do you think of using a Concentration check at casting time, and, say, taking unavoidable virtual nonlethal damage on failure? That way, trying to cast a too powerful, too difficult spell, might knock a caster unconscious even? Or maybe exhausted/fatigued pattern?

I managed to read up on Binders; The effectively do a transform-lite to the target creature (and that's what vestiges are; creatures sans attributes or skills)

So... Instead of binding creatures,  you regardless make a pact; DC should equal 15 + target creature's CR, for the most part. This only allows you to draw upon the creature in actions, unlike binders who let the creatures effectively live inside themselves.

The roll would be d20 + class level + CHA modifier, with +2 synergy from having 5 ranks in diplomacy, and  +4 at 10 ranks.

Unlike Binders, you must actually know about the creature, using an appropriate knowledge check; Failure of 4 or less increases the DC by 1 each, with as usual, failing by 5 or more means you either don't know enough of the creature, or that you attract something you'd rather not. Each 5 over DC gives you +1 to the pact / contract check.

Not binding them leaves you with some further freedom: You can summon your patron's influence on the world in other places besides your immediate vicinity. This increases the DC of crafting a spell.

Your magic ability would be something like your class level + your charisma modifier, so typically 4 at level 1.

The following may be a bit too complicated, although I'm not sure...
[spoiler]
Let's say, f'r ex, casting time would use a default cost of standard action: Going faster - move, swift, immediate or free, would increase the cost by 2, 4 ,8, or 16 pts. Increasing the casting time would decrease the cost by first 1, to full-round action, then 2 for a full round, 3 for 2 rounds, 4 for 3 rounds, 5 for 1 min, then 6 for 10 min and 7 for 1 hour, which would be the maximum casting time.

Increasing a spell's duration would work similarily - 0 immediate, 1-3, 1-3 rds, 4 1 rd/lv, 6 1min/lv, 8 10min/lv,

Range would use cost of 0 for personal, 1 for touch, 2 for short, 4 for medium, 6 for long.
We don't need to worry about areas, as  those depend on the patron's abilities.
SU abilities cost 6 more, SP 12, and actual spells 18.


So,
as a rule of thumb, we can cast spells with magic power of 3-6 at first level; our power is 4, and our maximum result for the spellcraft check (used for, y'know, crafting a spell) would likely be 26-27, which is
10 more than a base DC of 16.

although making a more  complex spell should increase the craft DC...
[/spoiler]

a standard action offensive spell accessible at first level, on short range, could be a small fire elemental's slam attack, +3, 1d4 +1d4 fire and ref dc 11 vs. 1d4 rounds of Burn.
Magic cost of 1 (cr of a small elemental) and +2 for short range.
It's probably good to allow either Aid Another (+2 to hit) by increasing the cost to +6, or doubling the damage (summoning the power of two elementals).

Also, typically you could gain <element> mastery for 1 round /  level, or an Earth Elemental's Natural AC of +7 (which, for an unarmored mage is only about equal to a fighter with scale mail + shield, which is okay considering all the nerfs mages get with this mechanic ).

I guess it would be good to list what a mage could get without input from a DM - summoning a creature's attack, or one of it's natural attributes (nat ac, darkvision, movement mode) on self, or using one of it's EX or SU abilities....

That being said, a monster-ability gaining virtual totemist is also interesting... PCs getting monster abilities IS effectively the whole mechanic of both MoI and the Binder.

Amechra

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 12:40:27 AM »
Maybe have the Mage trade something to the creature, perhaps some skill points, or a couple points of a stat, or some HP...

Nothing major, but it opens up having a template that would allow you to represent a creature that made a lot of pacts, which would be on the whole smarter, stronger, tougher, and more skillful.

I mean, imagine a Mage pacting with a Fire Elemental; wouldn't the Fire ELemental want something in return? Something scary might be that whatever creature that you pact with gains all the benefits of being a familiar, with the increased intelligence being instead spread across the board? Or having a creature with an extant pact pick up one of the better ability score distributions, such as the Elite array?

So in other words, what can you offer the creature to get the pact?

Actually, if you want to see how to do this mechanically (just for ideas, obviously), there are Dragon Pacts from Dragon Magic (basically, sacrifice a little to get thematic SLAs, with a system that prevents you from just abusing the contract without reason.)
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 05:28:46 AM »
There's definitely a trade. Giving average hit points and trading them away would probably work. (besides it never made much sense to me, mages having less than average humanoid HD. At least until I remind myself HP is an abstraction. )
Then again, I'm not sure if the price needs to be more than fluff, as you can sell your soul, and you usually just gain bonus feats for it. T_T

I do have this image that creatures who make pacts either wish to gain something, or are already lords of their kind. It's kind of interesting if, say, as you increase levels, it's the same small fire elemental you pacted with on first level, who's increased in power enough to become a medium elemental, whom you call....

Of course, maybe the patron creatures simply gain equivalent of positive levels when they make a pact... (+1 all skill checks, saves, attacks, +5 HP)
I'll need to check Dragon Magic, although I seem to recall Dragon Pacts being rather underwhelming, and Legacy champions.....

Nytemare3701

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 11:23:54 AM »
Whoa there! Class abilities shouldn't cost you anything unless they are particularly powerful, in which case you use XP or a risk factor. You are paying in raw magical energy which they can use for whatever. It's just a flavor excuse to HAVE the class ability.

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 11:38:55 AM »
Agreed. However, the patron creature should also gain something from the pact... Of course, that's all mainly fluff, and doesn't need mechanical rules.

Still, just 'cause it's fluff... well, my stance is, Fluff is important. It may be mutable on a per-game basis, but it isn't mutable by per-day basis, and it's MORE important than rules, in actual gameplay.

Any thoughts on limitations? I mean, cheap abilities should be practically free, but bigger ones should have a cost, or a risk.

As for DCs, a 1st-level character would typically have +2 - +3 charisma, so if the check is level + charisma vs. X + CR, it can't be very difficult. A flat charisma check would be just no. Even a 20th-level character won't be making a DC 30 charisma check too easily.
It might be plausible to just use diplomacy, but really, if the creature know enough to contact the creature and is of level high enough to make a pact, it should mostly just be a formality... at least vs. base elementals.
An opposed charisma check would work, using level + cha vs. CR + cha, with the mage getting bonuses depending on their knowledge of the creature - +1 per 5 past the creature's know DC, and a flat +5 or +10 for knowing it's true name.

Failure is usually just a delay, as if one creature is unwilling, perhaps another isn't. Of course, unique creatures can't be retried, at least not without a penalty, so no hammering Pazuzu 'til he agrees.

But, really... I want basic, simple abilities to be effectively at-will with stronger instances having some sort of a cost - say, using the basic slam attack of an elemental, as if you were that elemental...

Should the attack use the elemental's attack roll or the caster's though?

Nytemare3701

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 11:45:26 AM »
I thought the risk of damage a good fluff reason. The patron tries to take more than you offer, and tears at your soul.

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2011, 12:12:12 PM »
I thought the risk of damage a good fluff reason. The patron tries to take more than you offer, and tears at your soul.
Roll a check, on failure take unblockable nonlethal damage, save for half damage and avoiding fatigue?

... class level + int + cha vs. spell DC?  ( cha is raw power and int is using it efficiently )

Nytemare3701

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2011, 12:59:46 PM »
Treat it like the binder check. If you fail the check you get the power, but take some sort of restriction (or Unhealable Con damage)

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2011, 01:43:32 PM »
Treat it like the binder check. If you fail the check you get the power, but take some sort of restriction (or Unhealable Con damage)
It'd work. Create an 'oops' table for nat 1 rolls including mostly nothing, some fizzles, some larger-than-intended effects... (say, instead of instantaneous, the effect continues until you succeed in a control check at +5 DC, and each round  you take some non-crippling penalty)

I've noticed, checking vs. a couple of printed tables is really very fast in gameplay.

Prime32

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2011, 02:43:29 PM »
Agreed. However, the patron creature should also gain something from the pact... Of course, that's all mainly fluff, and doesn't need mechanical rules.
IIRC Dragon Magic has rules on dragonpacts which explain what the dragon gets.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Re: Ah ha! I think i've got it! or why it's both Beautiful AND Genius....
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2011, 03:01:51 PM »
@Prime32: I'll check them out --- I've read them before, naturally, but refresh is good. The cost for the player in a base class is basically 'these class features instead of some other class features'.

Do you think unlimited use -> cast from HP -> Fatigue -> Exhaustion works as a potential cost for spells?  I think it sounds rather similar to d20 advanced magic, but I don't want to make it too complicated... not that roll vs DC, on failure check table is too complicated, per se... Well, ideally you'd be able to keep every combat rule in memory for the most part. There's some risk in allowing WoP/customization for spells, as it removes the option of a player just opening MM on the appropriate page and checking the effect... but then again, ranged bolts of magic and fireballs are something a mage needs to have, even if  the crunch is completely different from vancian wizards.... ( getting them from devils would work, but that's late... maybe not that bad, really; after all, if we compare to what equal level wizards could do, it's already overpowered ).

*edit* Started trying to put some crunch into a document.
google docs link
...
Er, ignore the doc title <_<