Author Topic: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)  (Read 2770 times)

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Hallack

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SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« on: December 28, 2010, 03:22:24 PM »
Spell Immunity]http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm] Spell Immunity

How do folks around here work the interaction between SCM Shadow Illusions and the Spell Immunity line of spells.

At best (or worst depending on perspective) Spell Immunity would be able to function on them by choosing immunity so Shadow Conj or Evoc spells due to the "functions identically to" clause.

Spell Immunity only functions on specific spells of up to 8th level if using Greater Version. 

Would you allow Spell Immunity to target the full range of Shadow Illusions by SCM (1st-8th level).  I considered requiring applications for Greater Shadow Evoc and Conj but the Shadow Illusion ability does not work "identically" to the Greater versions.

What Ideas and rules wisdom is floating out there.

I figure this is just going to be one of those areas that must simply be left to DM preview.
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snakeman830

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Re: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 03:43:33 PM »
They would have to apply Spell Immunity to whatever Image spell was being used.  It is still a (X) Image spell, after all.  it just does something different from normal.  Interestingly, this would ONLY protect against the Shadowcraft Mages, since none of the (X)Image spells normally allow SR.
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Hallack

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Re: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 03:49:07 PM »
Hmm, just noticed that Spell Immunity does NOT protect from Su abilities.

Shadow Illusion is a Su ability and therefore Spell Immunity explicitly does not work against it. Yes?
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X-Codes

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Re: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 06:00:46 PM »
Hmm, just noticed that Spell Immunity does NOT protect from Su abilities.

Shadow Illusion is a Su ability and therefore Spell Immunity explicitly does not work against it. Yes?
Wrong.  You are casting Silent Image, and as a result of the Shadow Illusion ability your Silent Image spell mimics the effect of some other spell.

Hallack

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Re: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 08:13:47 PM »
Silent Image is NOT subject to SR and therefore Spell Immunity would not affect it (unless it changed to an SR: Yes).

The Silent Image is modified by the SCM's (Su) Shadow Illusion ability to 'function identically' to Shadow Evocation/Conj (with some modifications).
Quote
Spell Immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.


So does Spell Immunity somehow work on a spell without SR or an ability that is a Su now?

Or would this be a matter of ruling that 'functions identically' to allow Spell Immunity to affect the Shadow Illusion spells by choosing immunity to Shadow Evoc/Conj spells which do give SR checks?

Which brings up, does 'functions identically' mean 'treated as' in regards to interactions with spells and abilities? 

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X-Codes

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Re: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 09:04:50 PM »
Silent Image is NOT subject to SR and therefore Spell Immunity would not affect it (unless it changed to an SR: Yes).

The Silent Image is modified by the SCM's (Su) Shadow Illusion ability to 'function identically' to Shadow Evocation/Conj (with some modifications).
Quote
Spell Immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.


So does Spell Immunity somehow work on a spell without SR or an ability that is a Su now?

Or would this be a matter of ruling that 'functions identically' to allow Spell Immunity to affect the Shadow Illusion spells by choosing immunity to Shadow Evoc/Conj spells which do give SR checks?

Which brings up, does 'functions identically' mean 'treated as' in regards to interactions with spells and abilities? 


Hi Welcome

You are NOT casting Shadow Illusion, you are casting Silent Image.  When employing Shadow Illusion, Silent Image explicitly allows SR (even if the spell being mimiced does not).  Since Silent Image NOW allows SR to negate, Spell Immunity cast to protect against Silent Image will completely negate any and all spells mimiced using Silent Image.  Using Shadow Illusion to alter a Silent Image spell does not change the fact, AT ALL, that Silent Image is a spell.

Hallack

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Re: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2010, 12:17:29 PM »
Hi Welcome

You are NOT casting Shadow Illusion, you are casting Silent Image.  When employing Shadow Illusion, Silent Image explicitly allows SR (even if the spell being mimiced does not).  Since Silent Image NOW allows SR to negate, Spell Immunity cast to protect against Silent Image will completely negate any and all spells mimiced using Silent Image.  Using Shadow Illusion to alter a Silent Image spell does not change the fact, AT ALL, that Silent Image is a spell.

[spoiler]
Really?  Going through the mental exercise of working through the interactions of various rules pieces in the CO board now gets so easily blasted with an asinine Hi Welcome?  :tdown

Anyways, I'm not wedded to the idea of Spell Immunity not affecting SCM's shadow illusions.  Just trying to work through the pieces and was using the forum as a sounding board and aid.[/spoiler]

1) I agree.  The SCM is NOT casting Shadow Illusion. 

2) Shadow Illusion(Su) just modifies the Image spell allowing it to mimic other spells. 

3) Since the modified Image spell functions like the various Shadow spells (which grant SR) the modified Image spell will as well.

4) Thus, Spell Immunity (silent image) would be viable against the SCM's shadow illusions. (Since the ability only modifies the spell and does not convert it to a Su ability).

Pretty much what I figured from the beginning and how I'd run it as well.  Just wanted to challenge that view of the rules to see what holes could be poked in it.

X-Codes, in spite of the "Hi Welcome" thanks for your feedback.

Cheers.

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snakeman830

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Re: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2010, 01:31:37 PM »
They would have to apply Spell Immunity to whatever Image spell was being used.  It is still a (X) Image spell, after all.  it just does something different from normal.  Interestingly, this would ONLY protect against the Shadowcraft Mages, since none of the (X)Image spells normally allow SR.
I thought I had already answered the question, and what do you know?  Post 2 in the topic.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Hallack

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Re: SCM vs Spell Immunity (and Greater Version)
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2010, 01:37:35 PM »
They would have to apply Spell Immunity to whatever Image spell was being used.  It is still a (X) Image spell, after all.  it just does something different from normal.  Interestingly, this would ONLY protect against the Shadowcraft Mages, since none of the (X)Image spells normally allow SR.
I thought I had already answered the question, and what do you know?  Post 2 in the topic.

:) yes, you had.  Thank you as well Snakeman. 
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