Author Topic: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?  (Read 122003 times)

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #580 on: January 14, 2011, 06:38:15 PM »
If you can knock someone unconscious with your junk you can probably move your balls just the right way for your Fireball to come out your urethra.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #581 on: January 14, 2011, 07:08:19 PM »
If you can knock someone unconscious with your junk you can probably move your balls just the right way for your Fireball to come out your urethra.
:lmao

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Endarire

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #582 on: January 14, 2011, 09:08:11 PM »
Using Dragon Age as an analogy, I completed the game on Nightmare (the highest difficulty) using 3 Mages and 1 Warrior.

Minions were pushovers when I could do the Conefist trick (Cone of Cold to freeze then Stonefist to auto-kill them0.  Mages provided so much utility and damage that my Warrior often got in the way.

Traps?  Reload if you find them.  Chests?  Send in a Rogue after you've cleared the area to collect anything of value.

The most useful things my Warrior did in combat were:
1: Not Fall Down.  There's a talent which prevents knockdown.  This is occasionally handy.

2: Holy Smite (ranged stun) 1/fight.  I got it late game and used it perhaps 20 times, but it was spiffy to see my melee guy use a worthy ranged attack.

3: Let my Mages level enough to obsolete other classes.

I had an Arcane Warrior (gish) who could tank, but he was better off just using his spells most the time.  Only against Revenants (cold immune caster-killers) did I purposely load up on physical ability, and that was only until I learned other damage types like Fire worked on Revenants.

In short, casters win Dragon Age and D&D.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #583 on: January 14, 2011, 09:26:05 PM »
Traps?  Reload if you find them.  
Appealing to savescumming is hardly a good way of finding a balance point.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #584 on: January 14, 2011, 10:07:44 PM »
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the best approach.

Let's take Dragon Age as an example. In that game, the equivalent to AC actually matters, and having a tank doesn't keep you from using him/her to kill things - neither do the monsters ignore him/her in favor of squishier targets. A Rogue becomes absolutely essential because the game is completely RIDDLED with traps and locked treasure chests (my main in that game is a rogue). The mage becomes your bag of tricks: you can use him to buff, heal, or kill things in an area (yes, melee types can attack in an area too, but their range is shorter, they deal less damage and have little means of debuffing multiple enemies). They are also, however, made of wet tissue paper (unless optimized for tanking) and you simply can't get around that no matter what you do.

Dragon Age is, unfortunately, very much two-dimensional to use as a measuring stick. That's because it's a computer game, and by definition a computer game must have as many of the possible outcomes coded. D&D doesn't work like that. The Wizards don't have an option of one quickbar to solve their problems - they have a dozen of those. The Fighters, on the other hand, have auto-attack... maybe grapple and trip. And they won't be automatically good at that.

What if the Fighters had quickbars?  They could have abilities that they could use with some low cooldown to represent the physical exertion.  Like certain abilities would only be once an encounter, and some would be easy enough to use every round!  Wizards of the Coast should really look into this.
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raith0

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #585 on: January 14, 2011, 11:25:09 PM »
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the best approach.

Let's take Dragon Age as an example. In that game, the equivalent to AC actually matters, and having a tank doesn't keep you from using him/her to kill things - neither do the monsters ignore him/her in favor of squishier targets. A Rogue becomes absolutely essential because the game is completely RIDDLED with traps and locked treasure chests (my main in that game is a rogue). The mage becomes your bag of tricks: you can use him to buff, heal, or kill things in an area (yes, melee types can attack in an area too, but their range is shorter, they deal less damage and have little means of debuffing multiple enemies). They are also, however, made of wet tissue paper (unless optimized for tanking) and you simply can't get around that no matter what you do.

Dragon Age is, unfortunately, very much two-dimensional to use as a measuring stick. That's because it's a computer game, and by definition a computer game must have as many of the possible outcomes coded. D&D doesn't work like that. The Wizards don't have an option of one quickbar to solve their problems - they have a dozen of those. The Fighters, on the other hand, have auto-attack... maybe grapple and trip. And they won't be automatically good at that.

What if the Fighters had quickbars?  They could have abilities that they could use with some low cooldown to represent the physical exertion.  Like certain abilities would only be once an encounter, and some would be easy enough to use every round!  Wizards of the Coast should really look into this.

did i miss the sarcasm here?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #586 on: January 15, 2011, 12:30:41 AM »
did i miss the sarcasm here?
Start rolling your fumble.
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JaronK

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #587 on: January 19, 2011, 10:11:05 PM »
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the best approach.

Let's take Dragon Age as an example. In that game, the equivalent to AC actually matters, and having a tank doesn't keep you from using him/her to kill things - neither do the monsters ignore him/her in favor of squishier targets. A Rogue becomes absolutely essential because the game is completely RIDDLED with traps and locked treasure chests (my main in that game is a rogue). The mage becomes your bag of tricks: you can use him to buff, heal, or kill things in an area (yes, melee types can attack in an area too, but their range is shorter, they deal less damage and have little means of debuffing multiple enemies). They are also, however, made of wet tissue paper (unless optimized for tanking) and you simply can't get around that no matter what you do.

Dragon Age is, unfortunately, very much two-dimensional to use as a measuring stick. That's because it's a computer game, and by definition a computer game must have as many of the possible outcomes coded. D&D doesn't work like that. The Wizards don't have an option of one quickbar to solve their problems - they have a dozen of those. The Fighters, on the other hand, have auto-attack... maybe grapple and trip. And they won't be automatically good at that.

Terrible analogy.  Dragon Age is plagued by casters being dramatically overpowered... playing a party of three casters and a Rogue (Leilana as a bow rogue, solely for traps/chests, scouting, and pulling) is like playing in god mode.  One caster drops the Earthquake, the next drops the Blizzard (now nothing can move or act and everything's taking damage) and the last one uses Tempest to make sure everything stays dead.  Even the fight you're supposed to lose because it's supposed to be impossible becomes trivial.  You can even have your casters tank better than Fighters by taking the class that lets them wear heavy armor and use their magic rating as strength.  Dragon Age has exactly the problems of D&D... Rogues are only good for stuff that is specifically made Rogue only (disabling devices and stealth) and casters do everything better, so tanks are just there to look pretty.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #588 on: January 19, 2011, 10:22:37 PM »
I will typically reset to save myself the trouble if my mage(s) die anytime before the end of the battle, especially because they're also the only ones who (to my knowledge) can un-kill people. So yeah, mages are just a little too good. The others do have their uses, but they're hardly necessary (especially once Arcane Warrior is an option; even moreso once Blood Mage is too). Speaking of the above, though, I like to have Blizzard and Tempest cast by the same caster, while under the effects of Spell Might. Fun times, unless friendly fire is on in which case it's the worst idea in the world in every case but an ambush I lay.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #589 on: January 19, 2011, 10:25:30 PM »
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the best approach.

Let's take Dragon Age as an example. In that game, the equivalent to AC actually matters, and having a tank doesn't keep you from using him/her to kill things - neither do the monsters ignore him/her in favor of squishier targets. A Rogue becomes absolutely essential because the game is completely RIDDLED with traps and locked treasure chests (my main in that game is a rogue). The mage becomes your bag of tricks: you can use him to buff, heal, or kill things in an area (yes, melee types can attack in an area too, but their range is shorter, they deal less damage and have little means of debuffing multiple enemies). They are also, however, made of wet tissue paper (unless optimized for tanking) and you simply can't get around that no matter what you do.

Dragon Age is, unfortunately, very much two-dimensional to use as a measuring stick. That's because it's a computer game, and by definition a computer game must have as many of the possible outcomes coded. D&D doesn't work like that. The Wizards don't have an option of one quickbar to solve their problems - they have a dozen of those. The Fighters, on the other hand, have auto-attack... maybe grapple and trip. And they won't be automatically good at that.

Terrible analogy.  Dragon Age is plagued by casters being dramatically overpowered... playing a party of three casters and a Rogue (Leilana as a bow rogue, solely for traps/chests, scouting, and pulling) is like playing in god mode.  One caster drops the Earthquake, the next drops the Blizzard (now nothing can move or act and everything's taking damage) and the last one uses Tempest to make sure everything stays dead.  Even the fight you're supposed to lose because it's supposed to be impossible becomes trivial.  You can even have your casters tank better than Fighters by taking the class that lets them wear heavy armor and use their magic rating as strength.  Dragon Age has exactly the problems of D&D... Rogues are only good for stuff that is specifically made Rogue only (disabling devices and stealth) and casters do everything better, so tanks are just there to look pretty.

JaronK

This was the same way I ran through it. One damage dealer Caster, Two Tank casters (my Main and that healer chick) where one doubles as the healer, and one rogue because only rogues can open locked doors (I used Leliana too).

Everything started with casting the three crowd control spells on any target they could see, then the tanks keeping to the outside so they wouldn't take damage from running in there, and the caster and rogue attempting to pull them out. Needless to say, the rogue never did anything because the Tank Casters just couldn't die, and when they were close to, just one Minor Health potion was needed.

On the last boss, I tried a different party set-up (for various reasons which I wont spoil, some party members become unavailable through the game), the entire party died, except for my Caster Tank main, who just went over to the BBEG and chopped at it with an axe untill it was dead, whenever he was low on health (which took like 5 attacks) he would sip one of the least potions to gain more health.

This was probably more a problem with the Arcane Warrior class making you into the most SAD character ever. When you suddenly use Magic to give you mana, Spellpower, Damage, Which armours you can wear, and hit points weren't decided on stats. You stop worrying about it.

If you want to see a system were the fighters have options that still seem realistic but allows a choice in battle, Runequest is a decent system. The wizards in that game can only cast 1 or 2 spells per day, and will have to rely on mundane things for the rest of the day. That is a system I like way better than 3.5.
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raith0

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #590 on: January 19, 2011, 10:41:45 PM »
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the best approach.

Let's take Dragon Age as an example. In that game, the equivalent to AC actually matters, and having a tank doesn't keep you from using him/her to kill things - neither do the monsters ignore him/her in favor of squishier targets. A Rogue becomes absolutely essential because the game is completely RIDDLED with traps and locked treasure chests (my main in that game is a rogue). The mage becomes your bag of tricks: you can use him to buff, heal, or kill things in an area (yes, melee types can attack in an area too, but their range is shorter, they deal less damage and have little means of debuffing multiple enemies). They are also, however, made of wet tissue paper (unless optimized for tanking) and you simply can't get around that no matter what you do.

Dragon Age is, unfortunately, very much two-dimensional to use as a measuring stick. That's because it's a computer game, and by definition a computer game must have as many of the possible outcomes coded. D&D doesn't work like that. The Wizards don't have an option of one quickbar to solve their problems - they have a dozen of those. The Fighters, on the other hand, have auto-attack... maybe grapple and trip. And they won't be automatically good at that.

Terrible analogy.  Dragon Age is plagued by casters being dramatically overpowered... playing a party of three casters and a Rogue (Leilana as a bow rogue, solely for traps/chests, scouting, and pulling) is like playing in god mode.  One caster drops the Earthquake, the next drops the Blizzard (now nothing can move or act and everything's taking damage) and the last one uses Tempest to make sure everything stays dead.  Even the fight you're supposed to lose because it's supposed to be impossible becomes trivial.  You can even have your casters tank better than Fighters by taking the class that lets them wear heavy armor and use their magic rating as strength.  Dragon Age has exactly the problems of D&D... Rogues are only good for stuff that is specifically made Rogue only (disabling devices and stealth) and casters do everything better, so tanks are just there to look pretty.

JaronK

This was the same way I ran through it. One damage dealer Caster, Two Tank casters (my Main and that healer chick) where one doubles as the healer, and one rogue because only rogues can open locked doors (I used Leliana too).

Everything started with casting the three crowd control spells on any target they could see, then the tanks keeping to the outside so they wouldn't take damage from running in there, and the caster and rogue attempting to pull them out. Needless to say, the rogue never did anything because the Tank Casters just couldn't die, and when they were close to, just one Minor Health potion was needed.

On the last boss, I tried a different party set-up (for various reasons which I wont spoil, some party members become unavailable through the game), the entire party died, except for my Caster Tank main, who just went over to the BBEG and chopped at it with an axe untill it was dead, whenever he was low on health (which took like 5 attacks) he would sip one of the least potions to gain more health.

This was probably more a problem with the Arcane Warrior class making you into the most SAD character ever. When you suddenly use Magic to give you mana, Spellpower, Damage, Which armours you can wear, and hit points weren't decided on stats. You stop worrying about it.

If you want to see a system were the fighters have options that still seem realistic but allows a choice in battle, Runequest is a decent system. The wizards in that game can only cast 1 or 2 spells per day, and will have to rely on mundane things for the rest of the day. That is a system I like way better than 3.5.

while we are mentioning other games one of my favorite games of all time is gemstone IV its a MUD but the core of the system allows for you to be great no matter what your class choice is.  it just allows for some classes to be better at specific things, or your class decides what spells you can learn.  it lets rogues be stealthy and wield small weapons.  it lets a warrior be the master of combat and spell casters if they want can use weapons or the can rely on spells or a combination there of. 

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #591 on: January 19, 2011, 11:08:26 PM »
Romancing SaGa has pretty useless magic - but the martial techs are badass.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #592 on: January 20, 2011, 12:26:03 AM »
Romancing SaGa has pretty useless magic - but the martial techs are badass.

It does have some pretty good spells if you can build your mages right. But I agree, the martial techs ARE badass.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #593 on: January 20, 2011, 12:33:48 AM »
Well, the best spell in the game is basically transcend mortality...
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