Author Topic: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?  (Read 122010 times)

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Aliment

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #560 on: January 13, 2011, 09:54:25 PM »
Everything is better on fire.
OBJECTION!

"It burns when I pee!" does not fall under that umbrella statement!
OVERRULED! A burning sensation does not equate to fire! See acid burn.
It can be a statement of prowess from a sorceror who has chosen to cast Fireball with his genitalia.

I thought he was just squeezing it out with his Burning Hands.

On Topic: Wait what were we even talking about?
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #561 on: January 13, 2011, 09:55:34 PM »
Everything is better on fire.
OBJECTION!

"It burns when I pee!" does not fall under that umbrella statement!
OVERRULED! A burning sensation does not equate to fire! See acid burn.
It can be a statement of prowess from a sorceror who has chosen to cast Fireball with his genitalia.

Sorcerer/monk? If you can make unarmed attacks with any part of your body you can probably cast with any part of your body...
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For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

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Final Fantasy 7
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Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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veekie

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #562 on: January 13, 2011, 10:16:58 PM »
Everything is better on fire.
OBJECTION!

"It burns when I pee!" does not fall under that umbrella statement!
OVERRULED! A burning sensation does not equate to fire! See acid burn.
It can be a statement of prowess from a sorceror who has chosen to cast Fireball with his genitalia.

Sorcerer/monk? If you can make unarmed attacks with any part of your body you can probably cast with any part of your body...
Can you perform somatic components?
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Bozwevial

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #563 on: January 13, 2011, 10:34:17 PM »
Everything is better on fire.
OBJECTION!

"It burns when I pee!" does not fall under that umbrella statement!
OVERRULED! A burning sensation does not equate to fire! See acid burn.
It can be a statement of prowess from a sorceror who has chosen to cast Fireball with his genitalia.

Sorcerer/monk? If you can make unarmed attacks with any part of your body you can probably cast with any part of your body...
Can you perform somatic components?
Nah, it specifically calls out 'hand.' Pity.

...sort of.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #564 on: January 13, 2011, 10:35:15 PM »
Everything is better on fire.
OBJECTION!

"It burns when I pee!" does not fall under that umbrella statement!
OVERRULED! A burning sensation does not equate to fire! See acid burn.
It can be a statement of prowess from a sorceror who has chosen to cast Fireball with his genitalia.

Sorcerer/monk? If you can make unarmed attacks with any part of your body you can probably cast with any part of your body...
Can you perform somatic components?

If you can knock someone unconscious with your junk you can probably move your balls just the right way for your Fireball to come out your urethra.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Bozwevial

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #565 on: January 13, 2011, 10:36:25 PM »
Monk/kensai might be an easier way to accomplish that.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #566 on: January 14, 2011, 11:43:33 AM »
Another thing that fucks up the caster vs. mundane thing came to mind last night and the "spell-generated weapons" thread reminded me of it.

All the best anti-caster shit is caster only!

Spell Turning: Fuck you, casters only (Unless you want to fuck about in a CW PrC for 3/day garbage)
Anti-Magic Field: Stay out! Casters only!
Crafting Magic Items: Casters ONLY!
Moon Blade: Fuck off! Casters only!

EVERYTHING can be mimicked by a spell and in fact most of the mundane anti-caster shit MIMICKS SPELLS.

They should've made counterspelling better and then left all the anti-caster shit OUT of the spell lists. Why the hell and HOW the hell anti-magic field a spell anyway? That makes zero sense except in fantasy, and even then there's no continuity about how magic works or what it does. It's just "magic".

If I were to balance this crap out, I'd first upgrade mundanes (as people in this thread have suggested), probably with all the shit I'd rip away from casters, like some of the stuff mentioned above.

Anyway, it came to mind and I figured I'd post it before I forgot.

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[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #567 on: January 14, 2011, 12:02:04 PM »
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.

Although we've established that I rage in vain (3.5 is over, and it's not changing), I just would've done things differently. Also last night I was nerd-raging but had my irritation eased, and so don't feel like typing "Fuck" followed by exclamation points so much.

I DO find it odd that anti-magic field is a spell, and I do think one easy step to re-balancing is instead of making new shit mundanes can do that casters can't, just take some of the shit casters shouldn't be able to do and hand it over to mundanes. New abilities are cool, but working within the established parameters is often more acceptable to players.

Really though, it's all just brainstorming for a game that will never happen, as Solo pointed out.


« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 12:05:21 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Midnight_v

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #568 on: January 14, 2011, 01:21:44 PM »
In the tome series I note that they gave a special version  of AMF to the barbarian and something similar to the samurai
Quote from:  Tome Barbarian
Primal Assault (Ex): At 15th level, a Raging Barbarian may choose to radiate an effect similar to an antimagic field when he enters a Rage, with a caster level equal to his HD. Unlike a normal antimagic field, this effect does not suppress magic effects on him or the effects of magic items he is wearing or holding.  
Quote from:  Tome Samurai
Parry Magic (Su):Cut Magic (Su):Reflect Magic(Su)
Point being yeah you might turn it over to mundanes in some way buuuutt... mundanes need magic items themselves so some editing of that mechanic might be needed.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 01:24:59 PM by Midnight_v »
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #569 on: January 14, 2011, 01:34:28 PM »
AMF should probably be a spell. It is not that much of a "allright I counter you", it's "now you're fucked and I gave basically nothing up to do this", if given to melee characters. When you look at it, it's quite fair on a caster. Basically using it on them says that "we're both fucked". The issue is with optimizers finding ways to circumvent this.

Still, I believe that ultimate ways to screw a strategy should be given only to that strategy, or otherwise they become obvious choices and create unfair situations. Just because casters are unfair in 3.5 currently does not mean that we want to turn the whole situation over completely. Most powerful effects, such as AMF, should come with a hefty cost. In case of AMF, the cost won't be enough if it is just given to fighters.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #570 on: January 14, 2011, 01:46:27 PM »
One of these days I'd like to try out the Tome material, I've liked it since I first took a look at it.

It is not that much of a "allright I counter you", it's "now you're fucked and I gave basically nothing up to do this"

This describes many spells and general caster advantages.

Most powerful effects, such as AMF, should come with a hefty cost. In case of AMF, the cost won't be enough if it is just given to fighters.

Since it's a 6th level spell effect and therefore requires 11th level unoptimized, I would say 11 levels of fighter is a much heftier cost than 11 levels of wizard.

I prefer a Paper-Rock-Scissors system for party roles. Beatstick should be > caster when beatstick can melee caster, caster should be > everything when (insert ideal circumstances). Casters who aren't built for melee should dread it, and beatsticks who can't get to the casters should dread them. The idea is that your party has Paper, Rock, and Scissors, but typically you're facing enemies who are only Paper, Rock, or Scissors.

There are other ways to do it, but they require more original thinking than was used in 3.5's inception.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 01:49:28 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #571 on: January 14, 2011, 03:48:37 PM »
One of these days I'd like to try out the Tome material, I've liked it since I first took a look at it.

It is not that much of a "allright I counter you", it's "now you're fucked and I gave basically nothing up to do this"

This describes many spells and general caster advantages.

Most powerful effects, such as AMF, should come with a hefty cost. In case of AMF, the cost won't be enough if it is just given to fighters.

Since it's a 6th level spell effect and therefore requires 11th level unoptimized, I would say 11 levels of fighter is a much heftier cost than 11 levels of wizard.

I prefer a Paper-Rock-Scissors system for party roles. Beatstick should be > caster when beatstick can melee caster, caster should be > everything when (insert ideal circumstances). Casters who aren't built for melee should dread it, and beatsticks who can't get to the casters should dread them. The idea is that your party has Paper, Rock, and Scissors, but typically you're facing enemies who are only Paper, Rock, or Scissors.

There are other ways to do it, but they require more original thinking than was used in 3.5's inception.

That's not RPS, it's basically odds and evens. And it doesn't deal with certain situations well. First, because it only lists two possible outcomes for each and the third is a tossup (rock on rock is supposed to be a draw, and draws don't happen in D&D). Second, because we're talking about a game with A LOT more variants.

What about ranged fighters? Skillmonkeys? Monsters, which don't always fit well in any category? What happens when you add things like maritime combat to the mix?
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For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Bozwevial

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #572 on: January 14, 2011, 03:53:22 PM »
What happens when you add things like maritime combat to the mix?
You'd better hope your boat is fireproof.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #573 on: January 14, 2011, 04:27:07 PM »
One of these days I'd like to try out the Tome material, I've liked it since I first took a look at it.

It is not that much of a "allright I counter you", it's "now you're fucked and I gave basically nothing up to do this"

This describes many spells and general caster advantages.

Most powerful effects, such as AMF, should come with a hefty cost. In case of AMF, the cost won't be enough if it is just given to fighters.

Since it's a 6th level spell effect and therefore requires 11th level unoptimized, I would say 11 levels of fighter is a much heftier cost than 11 levels of wizard.

I prefer a Paper-Rock-Scissors system for party roles. Beatstick should be > caster when beatstick can melee caster, caster should be > everything when (insert ideal circumstances). Casters who aren't built for melee should dread it, and beatsticks who can't get to the casters should dread them. The idea is that your party has Paper, Rock, and Scissors, but typically you're facing enemies who are only Paper, Rock, or Scissors.

There are other ways to do it, but they require more original thinking than was used in 3.5's inception.

That's not RPS, it's basically odds and evens. And it doesn't deal with certain situations well. First, because it only lists two possible outcomes for each and the third is a tossup (rock on rock is supposed to be a draw, and draws don't happen in D&D). Second, because we're talking about a game with A LOT more variants.

What about ranged fighters? Skillmonkeys? Monsters, which don't always fit well in any category? What happens when you add things like maritime combat to the mix?

Obviously I assumed that the concept would be expanded.

For example:

Ranged fighters are actually just direct-damage beatsticks who don't have to run to their target. I usually see this balanced by lower total damage output and features that take advantage of fighting at range (Attack multiple targets since you don't have to move to them, inflict status conditions, attack difficult-to-reach targets, force concentration checks, etc.). To avoid counterattack, many ranged attackers include enhanced mobility. Vice Versa, many highly-mobile characters are ranged attackers. The basic concept is "hard to hit, but keeps hitting you."

Skillmonkeys are usually doing their thing outside of combat. Either you're in combat or you're out of combat, utility in one neither includes nor excludes utility in the other. Casters can be skillmonkeys, melee characters can be skillmonkeys, ranged attackers can be skillmonkeys. Basically I see skillmonkeys as separate from a lot of balancing, because you only need to balance them against level-appropriate DCs and other characters.

Monsters do actually fit into categories, but frequently more than one. Many of the higher level monsters threaten in every category, and usually can threaten in two in a round (Although to threaten in all three they usually need more than one round). After that there are puzzle monsters, which tend to threaten in only one or two categories but can only be threatened by specific things. They're a different balancing act.

The point is: Everyone must be threatened by something. Everyone must fulfill a useful party role (Often being the aforementioned threat). Everyone must be capable of something that only they can offer to the party, so that their role cannot be easily ignored.

All the sentences that started with "everyone" just now are the players' jobs to make happen, but the game shouldn't fail at offering them means of doing those things.

So if you want to have a party of casters that's fine, but you'll be heavily threatened in one area where you'll have to compensate. Casters don't HAVE to be squishy, but traditional casters are so a party of traditional casters would have to account for direct-damage threats in their spell selection.

Also highly-flexible "Role-switching" classes like the Binder (and most Tier 1s) CAN switch their role constantly but in an actual campaign they end up focusing on one or two, depending on what the party needs. Just because they CAN fill any job when they wake up in the morning does not mean they DO fill EVERY job.

Throughout the length of this thread I keep thinking "Dragon Age" the video game, because the three classes in that game balance each other well. While you can use a party that doesn't have one specific class, you will have to focus your energy on compensating for that loss.

That game has Warriors, Mages, and Rogues. Any one of those can be optimized for a tank role (In fact the mage tank is the most resilient), but what neither the Rogue nor Mage can do as well as the Warrior is gather threat from enemy A.I. The warriors have abilities that specifically make A.I. target them.

D&D is much larger and more complex than Dragon Age, but the basic concept DOES expand to a more complex usage. Everyone brings something to the table, and if you do without a certain party role you will have fill that hole or you'll be weakened.

That's what I meant mentioning Rock Paper Scissors, and I stand by it. The fact that WotC failed to do this doesn't weaken my argument. Fighters still suck, but having someone who can melee is still helpful to the party.

As for maritime combat, I'd love to see it work, but have yet to see someone spend the time to really make it happen. I played a MUD once that had it, and I didn't do anything else in that game except kill sea monsters because naval combat is so rarely available.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 04:30:56 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #574 on: January 14, 2011, 04:50:51 PM »
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the best approach.

Let's take Dragon Age as an example. In that game, the equivalent to AC actually matters, and having a tank doesn't keep you from using him/her to kill things - neither do the monsters ignore him/her in favor of squishier targets. A Rogue becomes absolutely essential because the game is completely RIDDLED with traps and locked treasure chests (my main in that game is a rogue). The mage becomes your bag of tricks: you can use him to buff, heal, or kill things in an area (yes, melee types can attack in an area too, but their range is shorter, they deal less damage and have little means of debuffing multiple enemies). They are also, however, made of wet tissue paper (unless optimized for tanking) and you simply can't get around that no matter what you do.

Dragon Age is, unfortunately, very much two-dimensional to use as a measuring stick. That's because it's a computer game, and by definition a computer game must have as many of the possible outcomes coded. D&D doesn't work like that. The Wizards don't have an option of one quickbar to solve their problems - they have a dozen of those. The Fighters, on the other hand, have auto-attack... maybe grapple and trip. And they won't be automatically good at that.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Bozwevial

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #575 on: January 14, 2011, 05:01:00 PM »
That's certainly true (although mages can certainly be built along the BFC line; the Spirit school of spells is really awesome for that). One of the Wizard's biggest strengths is finding innovative solutions to problems or using spells in ways that a game can't really model. Look at Neverwinter Nights as an example--divination is a rather piddly school because the area where it shines (gathering information) isn't permitted, lest you spoil the plot.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #576 on: January 14, 2011, 05:08:38 PM »
[spoiler]
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the best approach.

Let's take Dragon Age as an example. In that game, the equivalent to AC actually matters, and having a tank doesn't keep you from using him/her to kill things - neither do the monsters ignore him/her in favor of squishier targets. A Rogue becomes absolutely essential because the game is completely RIDDLED with traps and locked treasure chests (my main in that game is a rogue). The mage becomes your bag of tricks: you can use him to buff, heal, or kill things in an area (yes, melee types can attack in an area too, but their range is shorter, they deal less damage and have little means of debuffing multiple enemies). They are also, however, made of wet tissue paper (unless optimized for tanking) and you simply can't get around that no matter what you do.

Dragon Age is, unfortunately, very much two-dimensional to use as a measuring stick. That's because it's a computer game, and by definition a computer game must have as many of the possible outcomes coded. D&D doesn't work like that. The Wizards don't have an option of one quickbar to solve their problems - they have a dozen of those. The Fighters, on the other hand, have auto-attack... maybe grapple and trip. And they won't be automatically good at that.
[/spoiler]

I don't see what you're trying to say, or more accurately I'm unsure what you mean to accomplish, since I agree with a lot of what you said.

I already knew that wizards have tons of options in D&D and fighters suck, and I never meant to appear as though I was contesting that point.

I was trying to say that although it's smaller scale with fewer variables, Dragon Age works the way D&D should have worked.

I know the differences between Dragon Age and D&D, but Dragon Age is a giant nod to generic fantasy, and D&D is generic fantasy. My point was that in D&D the party roles are most easily filled by a few classes with massive power (Tier 1s) and the classes that are supposed to fill certain roles fail to (You already know all this), but that it should have worked more like Dragon Age where every class can contribute in a unique and meaningful way (You also probably agree with this, even if you don't agree with my use of Dragon Age as an example).

In an ideal system: Yes you CAN do without certain classes, but you will either be weak where that class was strong or you will have to make an effort to fill the gap where they once were. Or at least that's how it SHOULD work.

As it is: You're BETTER OFF without certain classes, and you're BEST OFF just filling your party with Tier 1s. What fun is that?

So I'm not sure where we disagree or if we do at all, I was just making old points in new ways (While suggesting some specifics).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 05:13:40 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #577 on: January 14, 2011, 05:24:27 PM »
What I was pointing at is that a cyclical system of strengths and weaknesses only works in a close-ended environment such as a computer game. If your options are more diversified than "kill with sharp sticks", "kill with bows" and "kill them with blasting thingies", the system falls apart. The more points there are to consider, the more you have to consider how they interact with each other.

Let's take the Beholder, for example. He's supposed to be a major pain in the ass for Wizards and the like thanks to his central anti-magic eye, plus all the minor eye rays. So why isn't he?

A) The wizard has ways around being detected and thus specifically targetted.
B) The minor eye rays require that the central eye be shut while they fire.
C) The eye rays themselves have piddly DCs, which even if the Wizard couldn't shut down with ray deflection, his buffs protect him just fine against.

So if the Beholder decides to fly up to a cave roof and pelt the fighter down with his eye rays, the fighter's screwed. The Wizard is merely inconvenienced.

The Beholder is supposed to be a monster that kills spellcasters better, while it's actually the monster that kill melee types better. (Yes, this is not much of an inherent merit of the beholder.)

Either way, you have a situation where RPS is not a good solution without drastic changes to at least one party. You have to make the beholder unable to fly, give the fighter nonmagical flight, etc..

The closer you try to make D&D to a computer game, the least interesting it will be once you're done. Trust me on this.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #578 on: January 14, 2011, 05:54:53 PM »
B) The minor eye rays require that the central eye be shut while they fire.
C) The eye rays themselves have piddly DCs, which even if the Wizard couldn't shut down with ray deflection, his buffs protect him just fine against.
To be fair, the telekinesis eye ray makes up for that.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #579 on: January 14, 2011, 06:13:42 PM »
Had WotC not beaten the fighter class with the "reality" stick so badly, he could wall-run, jump, or non-magically fly up to the beholder in your example.

However any time they did anything with mundanes they made sure to smack them over and over again with "realism", while the casters received no such beatings because "it's magic."

Even if you're not working on cyclical strengths and weaknesses, the fact remains that many published WotC classes bring NOTHING meaningful to the table. It is also a fact that almost nothing threatens a well-prepared wizard.

So looking at those facts, I say "Everyone should be able to bring something meaningful to the table" and "Wizards need to be threatened by more things."

I contest that if the designers had given freedom, creative effort, and technical expertise equal to what they gave the casters to the mundanes then an RPS type system COULD work, although it would be more complex (RXPYS...) the basics could remain intact. However since we know they absolutely did NOT do this (The majority of published material is actually useless) then we cannot know how effective or ineffective it would be for the same reasons WotC didn't know the fighter sucked.

As it is 3.5 is just a bunch of floating construction materials, most of which are wasted. The basic system is workable, and since there is a wealth of published material as well as a high ceiling of power, it continually draws players. Many systems are better designed, but few have the support, quantity, or corporate weight that WotC wielded for 3.5, so we either salvage the best bits of what was published or make a ton of homebrew.
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.