Author Topic: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?  (Read 122028 times)

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Prime32

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2010, 05:53:37 PM »
I cannot fathom a reasoning that would lead to D&D world having an abnormal amount of heroes. It's way too improbable from a statistical viewpoint, and explaining things based on "it's possible" doesn't make sense. You have to compare the two worlds, and try to find a reason why D&D would be special compared to our world. After my demonstration of the contrary, burden of proof lies on you, and no, "it's magic" doesn't count.
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2010, 05:58:54 PM »
I was going to say that a D&D world would have a lot more heros than our world because the need for heroes is much, much greater.  Without those heroes, humanoid races wouldn't be able to establish kingdoms and civilization.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2010, 06:01:42 PM »
I was going to say that a D&D worls would have a lot more heros than our world because the need for heroes is much, much greater.  Without those heroes, humanoid races wouldn't be able to establish kingdoms and civilization.
They'd only exist at all at the whims of the stronger critters. If they can't protect themselves from the dragons and demons and devils and giants and such, then they'd have to have someone or something else protecting them. Most campaign worlds assume enough high-level characters to ward off even epic-level threats that seem to pop up every other week.

Thus, we probably should too. At least, unless it's a specific campaign world (like, say, Dark Sun).
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wotmaniac

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2010, 06:04:01 PM »
I know I'm a little late on this one ... but:
There are no rules to level sans encounters, so all high level NPCs exist by DM fiat.
quite the contrary -- there's almost 2 pages on the subject (starting on p.39, and continuing to p.41).  it's all in the narrative.

:twocents:


as to the OP ....
- compensating the underpowered mundanes is as easy as tossing them a couple of easter eggs ... and they're like "cool, bonus"
- adjustments made for overpowered magic usually involves smacking it with the nerf-bat ... leaving the player feeling cheated.

as for "re-balancing" the game as a whole .... it's all in how and where you set the expectations.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Gods_Trick

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2010, 04:54:34 PM »
I know I'm a little late on this one ... but:
There are no rules to level sans encounters, so all high level NPCs exist by DM fiat.
quite the contrary -- there's almost 2 pages on the subject (starting on p.39, and continuing to p.41).  it's all in the narrative.

:twocents:


as to the OP ....
- compensating the underpowered mundanes is as easy as tossing them a couple of easter eggs ... and they're like "cool, bonus"
- adjustments made for overpowered magic usually involves smacking it with the nerf-bat ... leaving the player feeling cheated.

as for "re-balancing" the game as a whole .... it's all in how and where you set the expectations.

Oh, I wasn't aware. DMG? Or a splat book?

wotmaniac

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2010, 01:16:17 AM »
I know I'm a little late on this one ... but:
There are no rules to level sans encounters, so all high level NPCs exist by DM fiat.
quite the contrary -- there's almost 2 pages on the subject (starting on p.39, and continuing to p.41).  it's all in the narrative.

:twocents:


as to the OP ....
- compensating the underpowered mundanes is as easy as tossing them a couple of easter eggs ... and they're like "cool, bonus"
- adjustments made for overpowered magic usually involves smacking it with the nerf-bat ... leaving the player feeling cheated.

as for "re-balancing" the game as a whole .... it's all in how and where you set the expectations.

Oh, I wasn't aware. DMG? Or a splat book?
dmg.
now, that being said ... it doesn't have a specified matrix; but it does lay things out sufficiently to be utilized effectively.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2010, 01:28:31 AM »
I know I'm a little late on this one ... but:
There are no rules to level sans encounters, so all high level NPCs exist by DM fiat.
quite the contrary -- there's almost 2 pages on the subject (starting on p.39, and continuing to p.41).  it's all in the narrative.

:twocents:


as to the OP ....
- compensating the underpowered mundanes is as easy as tossing them a couple of easter eggs ... and they're like "cool, bonus"
- adjustments made for overpowered magic usually involves smacking it with the nerf-bat ... leaving the player feeling cheated.

as for "re-balancing" the game as a whole .... it's all in how and where you set the expectations.

Oh, I wasn't aware. DMG? Or a splat book?
dmg.
now, that being said ... it doesn't have a specified matrix; but it does lay things out sufficiently to be utilized effectively.

Danke. I'll take a look once I get my hands on my books.

Re Underpowered Munds. Instead of Easter Eggs, I'd rather just see all melee types improved to Tier 3. Maybe some at will SR or feats that give the equivalent of spells, used as per day extraordinary abilities.

veekie

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2010, 03:25:37 AM »
Quote
Re Underpowered Munds. Instead of Easter Eggs, I'd rather just see all melee types improved to Tier 3. Maybe some at will SR or feats that give the equivalent of spells, used as per day extraordinary abilities.
Well, maybe not so blatantly spell-like stuff, but give them the ability to emulate useful spell effects.
E.g. For fighters to get the ability to automatically have any weapon they use be treated as a +X weapon.
(Ex) Dispel Magic access through attacking a spell effect(I'm looking at you, indestructible Tentacles, Wall of Force)
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2010, 04:56:43 AM »
Quote
Re Underpowered Munds. Instead of Easter Eggs, I'd rather just see all melee types improved to Tier 3. Maybe some at will SR or feats that give the equivalent of spells, used as per day extraordinary abilities.
Well, maybe not so blatantly spell-like stuff, but give them the ability to emulate useful spell effects.
E.g. For fighters to get the ability to automatically have any weapon they use be treated as a +X weapon.
(Ex) Dispel Magic access through attacking a spell effect(I'm looking at you, indestructible Tentacles, Wall of Force)

Not bad  :). A targeted Dispel Magic effect equal to BAB+ 1d20 usable X numbers a day. Would certainly help BSFs return a bit of battlefield control from opposing casters. its even useful for the whole party if meleer targets, say Black Tentacles.

I can't suspend disbelief enough to see it working on a Cloud spell though. Anything corporeal limit I'd say.

skydragonknight

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2010, 05:15:34 AM »
"This Cloud is so thick I could cut it with a knife!"
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2010, 05:55:24 AM »
"This Cloud is so thick I could cut it with a knife!"
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Benly

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2010, 06:04:16 AM »
It makes me think of the legend of the sword Kusanagi no Tsurugi. Yamato Takeru was caught in a brushfire and created a mighty wind by swinging his sword which blew the fire back towards his enemies, earning the sword its name.

veekie

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2010, 09:37:32 AM »
I can't suspend disbelief enough to see it working on a Cloud spell though. Anything corporeal limit I'd say.
Unless its instantaneous(and thus not subject to dispel anyway), you can think of it as cleaving the spell matrix generating the cloud. Think Neo and the Matrix.

At higher levels, you can stretch the same to Plane Shifting(via interplanar Dimension Door like effect, i.e. a 1 round duration portal) by chopping a hole in the fabric of reality. Bypass the need for a tuning rod, but require that the plane be 'adjacent'. Basically you just gotta blow a hole to the Astral, walk over to the region near the destination of choice and cleave another one.
Or you could just chop a hole open and kick someone through.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2010, 10:45:10 AM »
It makes me think of the legend of the sword Kusanagi no Tsurugi. Yamato Takeru was caught in a brushfire and created a mighty wind by swinging his sword which blew the fire back towards his enemies, earning the sword its name.
It was the sword of the storm god, so...
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Benly

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2010, 10:59:56 AM »
It makes me think of the legend of the sword Kusanagi no Tsurugi. Yamato Takeru was caught in a brushfire and created a mighty wind by swinging his sword which blew the fire back towards his enemies, earning the sword its name.
It was the sword of the storm god, so...

Well, yes, the sword was a potent magical item in its own right. The thing is that magical items are less of a glued-on power in actual mythology than in D&D - the power of a magical sword is a reflection of its legendary wielder as much as it is "this sword is awesome".

veekie

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2010, 11:22:50 AM »
Often enough, the sword is awesome simply because it's wielder is awesome and it stayed awesome even after changing hands.

Theres more than one way to make magic items.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2010, 11:38:00 AM »
Often enough, the sword is awesome simply because it's wielder is awesome and it stayed awesome even after changing hands.

Theres more than one way to make magic items.
Plus, swordsmen are often able to draw out more of the power of a magic sword than spellcasters, even if it's very much a spell-related power. They can feel the sword rather than just understand its principles or something.

D&D has this backwards, with magic items having CL requirements for use but no BAB requirements.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 11:40:48 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2010, 11:43:02 AM »
I'd give fighters the ability enhance their weapons and armors while wielding them, a la kensai or soulknife, and stacks with preexisting abilities.

That way they could use the rest of their treasure for other more useful stuff...

...like that cute stable boy in the local tavern.
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I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Benly

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2010, 11:44:10 AM »
Often enough, the sword is awesome simply because it's wielder is awesome and it stayed awesome even after changing hands.

Theres more than one way to make magic items.

Well, and more than that, it's fairly rare that the sword will then proceed to still do great things in some crappy loser's hands who got hold of it. Legendary people wield legendary swords. If it looks like some scrub is wielding a legendary sword, it means that scrub is someone with a great destiny. Even when it's a handed-on artifact, the awesome is still to a great degree in its bearer.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2010, 12:13:47 PM »

  Ripping apart planes ... well I love it personally   :smirk, but you're going to have a lot of detractors with their 'hard as nails fighter' archetype... which always sounded oddly gay for the image they were going for  :P I would like to see some teleport spells reflavoured as flash step, super speed, whatever.

  How powerful would it be to take the magic weapon bonuses off te SoulKnife chasis, and give it to any and every Full BAB or d8 class? Make it a bonded weapon bonus, and not subject to disjunction. Gives a little more variety to meleers, maybe a Tier worth powerboost, and Lycanthomancer mentioned  ;), lets them save cash for the stableboys. Damn Charisma as a dump stat, these hard as nail fighters have needs!