Author Topic: Aerial Combo Barbarian  (Read 2307 times)

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bobtheapple

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Aerial Combo Barbarian
« on: December 20, 2010, 03:39:10 AM »
Its a rainy day, so I'll just leave this here.

When the standard is set by CoDzilla and other classes that often play rocket launcher tag for fun, a class that gets minor stat buffs a limited time per day and crap DR for a majority of its class features has a tendency to be left in the dust... where it sits despondently in a pool of its own tears, clutching its precious d12s to its breast and wishing for a simpler time; a time where the wizard could only cast magic missile and toughness didn't seem like such a mind-numbingly bad feat choice.  You know: level one or two, when barbarians shine before they are out-paced by second level spells.  So with that as the back drop, WotC poured time, sweat and blood into trying to FIX the damn class; they released barbarian PRCs, rage-related feats, and oh yes, alternate class features.  If you didn't know, there are quite a few alternate class features for barbarians.  One might say a ton, even.  I count 38 looking around in my books, and this doesn't include the insane number I have know doubt float around in obscure campaign settings, dragon magazine, and 3rd party publications.  And while some of them get talked about quite a bit on these boards (I'm looking at you, one level dip into lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian), the others... not so much.  This is a thread about a couple of those variants.

Specifically, today we will be looking at Fangshields Barbarian from Champions of Valor and Streetfighter from the wizards website.  Now, just taking a quick glance at these variants, and you can tell they were a match made in heaven... if heaven had some weird fetish for fey creatures wearing loincloths leaping around at freeway speeds with swords the size of buildings.  But things get interesting when one looks at just how good of a match they are.  Lets take a look at the specifics:

Fangshields Barbarian
Trap Sense is traded out for +10 enhancement bonus to movement when charging, which increases at the same rate as trap sense.
Uncanny dodge is lost for the ability to make one attack at the end of a charge that is an Awesome Blow, as per the feat.
The DR gained at 7th level is traded out for the ability to spend rages to heal. (This level of the variant isn't taken in this build)

Streetfighter Barbarian
The barbarian loses DR, and trades it out for the following:
7th level: Threat range of weapon increases by 1 when charging, stacks with keen.
10th level: The barbarian can make a 90 degree turn once per charge.
13th level: The barbarian can charge through the squares of allies and non-combatants
16th level: The barbarian moves at 4x speed when charging, instead of 2x.
19th level: This one is the key, so I'll just quote it directly, with bold for emphasis:
"At 19th level, the barbarian acquires a "cleaving charge." If he drops an opponent on a charge attack, and he has at least 10 feet of movement remaining, he can immediately make a new charge attack against a second foe. If he drops that foe and still has movement remaining, he can charge a third, and so on until he either fails to drop a foe, or runs out of movement. All the other standard rules for a charge attack still apply, including the fact that he must have at least 10 feet of distance to make the charge."

The Combo
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Endarire

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Re: Aerial Combo Barbarian
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 04:34:00 AM »
How can we Hood this?
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Aerial Combo Barbarian
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 04:56:48 AM »
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I would assume they meant render unconscious or dead via hit point damage.  Death can result from -10 or fewer hit points or failing a save versus massive damage, and unconsciousness can result from hit points below zero or nonleathal damage exceeding current hit points. 

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Nytemare3701

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Re: Aerial Combo Barbarian
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 05:08:01 AM »
How can we Hood this?

I went and re-read the hood thread as soon as I finished reading the OP.  :D

It shouldn't be terribly hard to combine this with hood. Both are chargers, and hood's autokill damage range would clear up the "drop prone" vs "drop dead" debate.

Edit: Combine with monk for repeated falcon punches?

X-Codes

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Re: Aerial Combo Barbarian
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 06:09:52 AM »
Since we want to call this an Aerial Combo, why not use a flier?  Raptoran is a nice, +0 LA winged creature.  Diving charges with Piercing weapons deal double damage already, if memory serves, so start at the top and work your way down for an extra multiplier w/o feat investment.

Prime32

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Re: Aerial Combo Barbarian
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 07:47:16 AM »
Note also that Combat Reflexes gives you an AoO whenever they're knocked out of one of your threatened squares.

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bobtheapple

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Re: Aerial Combo Barbarian
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 05:35:32 PM »

Well, yes, I suppose it is true that we don't have to assume that drop means anything at all like it has been used in the past, present or future, or even how it is used in the English language.  In fact, it could mean anything at all!  I'm fond of 'to smile at,' 'to give flowers to,' or even 'to think about.'  To quote Lewis Carroll:

Quote
I

Going purely off of assumptions and baseless interpretations, one could have any given piece of rules text mean anything they please (as an example: toughness gives a character 3 hit points, which are magical points that you can spend to get free hits on opponents.)  It is context and precedence that brings order to the language and holds back the arbitrary and chaotic use of it that Lewis Carroll proposed.  If we don't base our assumptions on precedence, that is to say, the other usages of the word drop, we invite free interpretation on any given word, rendering the language, let alone the ruleset of D&D, completely useless.  Since I cannot find any precedence in the rules for the word drop being used in the context 'to render dead or unconscious' where it can't also mean 'to render prone,' nor any definition for the transitive use of the verb 'drop' to mean anything along those lines, and there is precedence in the rules where the meaning is clear, concise, and sensible, such as characters 'dropping prone,' as well precedence in the English language as a whole ("To cause to fall, as by hitting or shooting." -American Heritage, "To bring down with a shot or a blow" -Merriam-Webster), I feel safe enough with my assumption... at least until someone brings a better glory than 'I think you are wrong.'

As an aside, there are intransitive definitions of the word drop that can be used in the other context, e.g. 'the foe dropped into death.'  The same general sentence worded transitively, however, ('he dropped the foe into death') is not proper English, and sounds silly really, invoking visions of someone picking up and dropping their opponent onto a guy wearing black cloak and carrying a scythe.  As an interesting word game, try adding prepositional phrases to the quoted rules text involving death or unconsciousness (such as 'to death' or 'into death') and then try adding 'to the ground' in the same place and reading them aloud.  I think you'll find that the latter generally forms more reasonable sentences.

I'll put up an actual build soon.  Honestly, I don't know why I didn't think of a flying creature, other than the narrow-minded line of thinking 'if they are falling to the ground, I'll have to be on the ground too.'  Does anyone know a good non-humanoid, no-HD race with better than 70' fly speed?  Raptorans are humanoid I believe, qnd only have 40' fly.  Also, sadly, the multiplier from diving is not useful in this case, since requires a minimal movement of 30' (well, with some crazy turning charge shenanigans it would be possible, but it would result in an over 33% damage loss, albeit with much fewer attack rolls and saves).  Maybe a mounted character would be better for this?
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Aerial Combo Barbarian
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 12:10:39 AM »
if heaven had some weird fetish for fey creatures wearing loincloths leaping around at freeway speeds with swords the size of buildings
Something tells me, if you make it, yours might end up being exactly that.

Aside from the 'drop' debate this is fine. There are ways even a Barb19 can up damage well beyond the HP of his CR range. But you should know there are 'easier' (fewer levels, but more dips) ways of doing exactly this.

It might be difficult to find a DM who accepts your definition of 'drops' but if you do, its great for a 'straight classed' campaign. Hf!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 12:20:07 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Aerial Combo Barbarian
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 01:18:41 AM »
Well, yes, I suppose it is true that we don't have to assume that drop means anything at all like it has been used in the past, present or future, or even how it is used in the English language.

The definition I gave is a slight generalization of the examples in the cleave feat.  It is consistent with how most people I've discussed it with feel the feat was intended to work.  You can take it or leave it.