Author Topic: Halp  (Read 3423 times)

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Rejakor

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Halp
« on: December 17, 2010, 01:51:25 PM »
Hey guys.

I'm not the best optimizer around, but I can generally build most concepts to most power levels.

However, this one has me stumped.

I'm playing a kind of dex-based rapier user - a duellist.  I started him out rogue/swashbuckler Daring Outlaw, but that was so boring.  So boring.  So I retrained some levels, and now i'm a rogue 2/swordsage 8.  We've just leveled up and... the maneuvers are starting to annoy me.  Generally if I want to contribute I have to either pull some cheese with Assassin's Stance and Distracting Ember or Cloak of Shadows or use Burning Blade + full attack to lay down a good 30-70 fire damage.  It's annoying that my maneuvers are pretty interesting, but also so weak.  Most of them only let you attack once with whatever bonus they give and some even require a full round action to let you do that.  A lot of stuff we've been fighting hasn't been sneak attackable either (although I do have Penetrating Strike, which helps), so it's all just a supermassive pit of fail and suck.  Not to mention that while swordsage maneuvers are /cool/, they aren't exactly the MOST thematic for a duellist


Hey guys.

I'm a Rogue 2/Unarmed Swordsage 8 'Duellist' that uses 2 rapiers.  High dex and int. 

Feats
Two-Weapon Fighting (is houseruled to be greater and improved twf as well, all in one feat - oh and tw defense)
Kung Fu Genius (reflavoured to work with unarmed swordsage instead of monk)
Quickdraw
Darkstalker
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip

With dex and int to AC and various bonuses i've got about 38 AC, which isn't bad for level 10 but isn't amazingly good either.

I want:
High AC
A way to damage people with light weapons rapiers that hopefully isn't sneak attack or Burning Blade (hell, even PA at this point could be a freaking option)
A way to force people to pay attention to me or I get to smack'em (Your Opponent Is Me! etc etc... doesn't exist in DnD as far as I can tell)
Bein' able to do swashbuckling things like disarm multiple people or get people to hit each other or trip people etc etc (doesn't exist in DnD without heavy feat expenditure and I don't really want to be a fighter... although I will if I have to)
Some way to ignore grapple/mitigate SoDs that sort of thing might be nice, too.
Some way of using a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other and not sucking (yes, I know about einhander - protip: It sucks)

What I don't want:
Tentacles, willing deformity, for fluff reasons
To lose maneuvers without gaining something /worth/ losing them for.  Retraining is a definite option, levelswise.
Thrown Weapon Master, Bloodstorm Blade, Teflammar Shadowlord, Cleric, Abjurant Champion.
To be a str based fighter
To use a weapon in both hands (finding a cheesy way of using a rapier in 2 hands while only holding it in 1 and not being a girallon is perfectly acceptable)
To be a dagger/thrower rogue - been there, done that, it is not like being a duellist.  While I play a very mean rogue and my use of mundane equipment is fantastic, this is not a rogue, it is a duellist.
To be a 'gish' - to take the unimaginable power of an optimized spellcaster and then use it to prop up a suboptimal choice.  If all the power is coming from spells, it's not really a duellist, it's a spellcaster with a rapier fetish.


Notes:  I have slightly higher than normal WBL.
I have a rapier that shares traits with a lance - it takes the best of both weapons, so it has either 10' or 5' reach, whichever is superior at any given moment.
I have another, different, rapier, that ignores hardness and DR but does not have reach.
All 3.5 books are open.
All FR books are open.
Books from other campaign settings (like Eberron) are not open.

carnivore

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Re: Halp
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2010, 02:14:25 PM »
try these feats:

Combat Panache
Type: Tactical
Source: Player's Handbook II

Your glowing personality and sharp performance abilities allow you to navigate the battlefield on sheer chutzpah alone. While others rely on swords and armor, you use your cutting wit and ability to manipulate others.

Prerequisite: Bluff 8 ranks, Intimidate 8 ranks, Perform 8 ranks.
Benefit: The Combat Panache feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Fortuitous Tumble: For a brief moment, you appear to let your guard down. As your foe swings at you, you slip our of the way, causing his attack to slam into one of his allies. By positioning yourself correctly and making yourself an appealing target, yots dupe your foe into making a critical blunder. To use this maneuver, you must be successfully attacked by a foe. On your next turn, you can take a move action to make a Bluff check opposed by his Sense Motive check. If you succeed on the check, you can take an immediate action at the start of your foe's next turn and designate a different target for your opponent's next melee attack (which must be a creature it threatens).
Play Dead: You crumple to the ground as if slain, luring your opponent into a false sense of security. As an immediate action after you are hit for at least 10 points of damage by a single attack, you can attempt to play dead. You drop prone and make a Bluff check opposed by your attacker's (or any other relevant observer's) Sense Motive check. If you succeed on this check, the observer assumes you are dead. If you subsequently rise and attack him in the same round, he loses any attack of opportunity he might have been entitled to against you, and he loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against the first attack that you make. You can use this ability once per encounter. Standing up after playing dead does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Sneering Glower: With just the right mix ofyour intimidating presence and your martial talents, you strike such fear into your target that he has difficulty fighting you effectively. On your next turn after you deal at least 1 point of damage to your opponent, you can make an Intimidate check against him as a move action. If you succeed on this check, your foe takes a penalty on his attack rolls against you equal to your Charisma bonus. You can gain this benefit against only one foe at a time; it lasts for the duration of the encounter or until you switch targets. If you designate a new target for this ability (by attempting a new Intimidate check against a different creature), the previous target no longer takes the penalty on his attack rolls against you. Opponents that are immune to the effects of the Intimidate skill, such as mindless creatures and those with immunity to fear, are immune to this maneuver.
Special: A fighter can select Combat Panache as one of his fighter bonus feats.




Goad
Type: General, Fighter
Sources: Miniatures Handbook
Races of Stone
Complete Adventurer

You are skilled at inducing opponents to attack you.

Prerequisite: Cha 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a move action, you can goad an opponent that threatens you, has line of sight to you, can hear you, and has an Intelligence of 3 or higher. (The goad is a mind-affecting ability.) When the goaded opponent starts its next turn, if it threatens you and has line of sight to you, it must make a Will saving throw (DC 10+ 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier). If the opponent fails its save, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against during this turn. (If it kills you, knocks you unconscious, loses sight of you, or otherwise is unable to make melee attacks against you, it may make any remaining melee attacks against other foes, as normal.) A goaded creature can still cast spells, make ranged attacks, move, or perform other actions normally. The use of this feat restricts only melee attacks.
Special: A fighter may select Goad as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Elusive Target
Type: Tactical
Source: Complete Warrior

Trying to land a blow against you can be a maddening experience.

Prerequisite: Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: The Elusive Target feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Negate Power Attack: To use this maneuver, you must designate a specific foe robe affected by your Dodge feat. If that foe uses the Power Attack feat against you, the foe gains no bonus on the damage roll but still takes the corresponding penalty on the attack roll.
Diverting Defense: To use this maneuver, you must be flanked and you must designate one of the flanking attackers to be affected by your Dodge feat. The first attack of the round from the designated attacker automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally, and its ally is considered flat-footed. If the designated attacker is making a full attack against you, its second and subsequent attacks function normally.
Cause Overreach: To use this maneuver, you must provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe by moving our of a threatened square. If the foe misses you, you can make a free trip attempt against this foe, and the foe does not get a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.

 :D

Rejakor

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Re: Halp
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2010, 02:29:27 PM »
The problem with Combat Panache is that it wants you to spend a move action to use any of it's tactical subfeats.

The problem with Elusive Target is Dodge and Mobility.  (Plus we haven't really fought many things that use PA so far, mostly it's stuff that just hits really hard naturally)

The problem with Goad is that... well, Goad is actually pretty nice.  It doesn't really solve my 'why do I have a rapier in both hands' and 'why am I doing sneak attack damage' and 'why do I need to use a desert wind maneuver to do any sort of damage why god why' problems, but it's pretty nice.  I forgot you didn't need 10 levels in blade bravo to get Goad, that is actually really nice.  If a bit convoluted and allowing a lot of saves and opposed checks.

Rejakor

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Re: Halp
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 03:15:08 PM »
Anyone else got 2c they're willing to throw in, or is this a hopeless cause?

Rejakor

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Re: Halp
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 03:32:46 PM »
This silence, it is deafening.

carnivore

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Re: Halp
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2010, 03:46:20 PM »
Elusive Target is also useful for Diverting Defense, if you are flanked .... Dodge and Mobility are both nice feats to have(Mobility can be gained with Armor) for a lightly Armored combatant

spending a Move Action for Combat Panache is easy ... especially if you use Travel Devotion (move as a Swift Action.... spend your Move action on the feat Combat Panache...)... in addition if you have a decent intimidate check + Cha bonus, Sneering Glower is awesome

you also might look at this feat:

Oversized Two-weapon Fighting
Type: General, Fighter
Source: Complete Adventurer

You are adept at wielding larger than normal weapons in your offhand.

Prerequisite: Str 13, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding a one-handed weapon in your offhand, you take penalties for fighting with two weapons as if you were wielding a light weapon in your offhand (see page 160 of the Player's Handbook).
Special: A fighter may select Over-sized Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

for Additional Damage .... consider this feat:

Knowledge Devotion

Type: Domain
Source: Complete Champion

You can use your knowledge to exploit your foes' weaknesses and overcome their strengths.

Prerequisite: Knowledge (any) 5 ranks.
Benefit: Upon selecting this feat, you immediately add one Knowledge skill of your choice to your list of class skills. Thereafter, you treat that skill as a class skill, regardless of which class you are advancing in. Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill.
You then receive an insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type for the remainder of the combat. The amount of the bonus depends on your Knowledge check result, as given on the following table.

Check Result BonusGranted
15 or below +1
16-25 +2
26-30 +3
31-35 +4
36 or higher +5

You can make only one Knowledge check per creature type per combat. If you fight creatures of multiple types during the same combat, you can make one Knowledge check per type, thereby possibly gaining different bonuses against different opponents.
This benefit is an extraordinary ability.



 :D


Rejakor

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Re: Halp
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 04:02:42 PM »
+5 damage is nice, but it requires a hell of alot of skill points invested in knowledge skills.

Also, that's Travel Devotion, Goad, Knowledge Devotion, Combat Panache, Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target.  That's more feats than I get and I can't really give up the ones that I already have.  Forgot to include Weapon Finesse on my list of feats.  I'm already using rapiers as onehanded weapons, which they are, not light, they just count as light for weapon finesse.

I've been looking at the Wounding weapon quality?  It looks alright, although disturbingly large numbers of things we've fought so far have been Constructs, Plants and Undead.

Also doesn't Travel Devotion let you take a swift action to move, not give you a move action to use for whatever?

I dunno.  The more I look at this the more I think custom/homebrew is the only way a dex based duellist is viable under the restrictions i've listed.

the_shadowmind

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Re: Halp
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 04:05:12 PM »
If the special rapier of yours is less than 4,000gp/ only a +1 bonus you could try to make it into a Weapon of Legacy.
For the founding ritual 500exp and 1,500~3,500gp you could turn into into a (Least) Weapon of Legacy.

At your level that would be up to 6 least abilities.
So something like this:

The abilities are from Tome of Battle/Weapon of Legacy.
5 Accurate Strike (kamate): 3/day, swift action to use, ignore concealment & +4 to comfirm a critical hit.
6 Claw of the Tiger (tiger fang): Cannot be disarmed from you.
7 Quick Draw (desert wind): For drawing the legacy weapon only.
8 Maneuver, Least (kamate): Gain access to any maneuver up to the 1st level you meet the prerequisites to, this ability can be taken multiple times.
9 Maneuver, Least (kamate): Gain access to any maneuver up to the 1st level you meet the prerequisites to, this ability can be taken multiple times.
10 Deflection: Item grants a +1 deflection bonus to AC

Lesser: 1,100exp, more penalties and more go cost(dependent) of penalty list selected.
11

Rejakor

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Re: Halp
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2010, 04:17:05 PM »
I suppose I could whack some points into Iaijutsu and get some extra damage that way.

Nope, it's a +2 weapon.  Can something get enchanted after it's turned into a weapon of legacy?  Are there better abilities than those ones?  Cause right now I have 8+1 levels of swordsage and i'm pretty sure I get a 6th level maneuver next level so 1st level maneuvers aren't that exciting.

Hm.  What I really need is like a class like the duellist PrC but less shit.

the_shadowmind

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Re: Halp
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2010, 04:22:36 PM »
I don't think you can enchant it after it becomes a weapon of legacy, there are WoL ability that is simply an enchantment bonus like a normal sword would, but they don't come till level 12 at the earliest.
Here is the handbook for the abilities. They are several better ones, I was only selecting the ones I picked since they are the least magical.

Rejakor

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Re: Halp
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2010, 04:27:29 PM »
I don't mind my sword being awesome.  I mind pulling fire out of my butt while wielding a rapier in each hand and teleporting around.  It's not super duellisty.

Rejakor

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Re: Halp
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2010, 04:37:34 PM »
Legacy weapon looks pretty cool.

Could definitely build some pretty cool weapons out of that.  I'd have to go and crack open the pdfs to do it, but for a fighter type it looks really interesting and fun.


I'm gonna go look at feinting with unarmed off hand attacks, stacking sneak attack and sudden strike, iaijutsu focus, and power attacking with one handed weapons.  Cause that's what it seems like i'm gonna have to do.

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Re: Halp
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2010, 04:52:21 PM »
I want:
A way to force people to pay attention to me or I get to smack'em
"Thicket of Blades, a Devoted Spirit Maneuver (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a), states 'While you are in this stance, any opponent you threaten that takes any sort of movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you.' It also specifically prohibits them from using the Withdraw action."

The Stand Still feat and the Hold The Line feat lock down (courtesy of Innovating Party Design: Method and Application).

Manifest Psychic Reformation to transform feats into others, cast "Embrace the Dark Chaos" then "Shun the Dark Chaos" to do the same, but better, visit Magical Locations for feats, swear service to an Elder Evil for Vile feats, accumulate taint for feats, rebuilding can transform as many levels as you want at the time,

Is my advice good or bad?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 05:02:57 PM by NiteCyper »
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.

Rejakor

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Re: Halp
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 11:43:40 AM »
Thicket of Blades, while amazing for pretty much any fighter type, doesn't solve the problem that my hits without some sort of non-duellisty-maneuver attached to them tend to be made of equal parts suck and weak.  I'd also have to burn a level on Crusader or a feat on Martial Stance.

Hold the Line + Stand Still is a pretty interesting lockdown, especially for a front line fighter.  It burns feats, and i'm already way overspent on feats.


The Elder Evils + Taint + Psychic Reformation trick is nice put it pushes any build directly into TO territory, as most GMs would not allow that sort of RAI-breaking.

Plus I don't want my Lawful Good duellist to be tainted and worshiping elder evils.

Your advice is good, but my concept and limitations make this hard.

Havok4

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Re: Halp
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 12:47:28 PM »
Given your requirements you might just want to focus on shadow hand, diamond mind, and tiger claw strike maneuvers to get a reasonable amount of damage with your rapier. Your concept would normally work well with shadow blade to give your attacks more damage but your instance on rapiers kind of removes that as an option.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Halp
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 10:07:34 PM »
Skip duelist altogether and focus on a multiclass swordsage/warblade. Take the maneuvers that fit your character, reflavor where needs be, and to hell with anyone who says you can't do either.
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