Author Topic: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.  (Read 12389 times)

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X-Codes

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2010, 03:10:45 PM »
Don't forget getting some means to cast it as a touch spell.  Master Specialist (Abjuration) works there.

Also Instantaneous Conjurations are the only spells that can affect an area inside an AMF.  I'm fairly confident you can't actually cast them while in an AMF.

Azrael

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2010, 03:45:27 PM »
Also Instantaneous Conjurations are the only spells that can affect an area inside an AMF.  I'm fairly confident you can't actually cast them while in an AMF.

You're right, normally you wouldn't be able to...if that's what he was getting at.

With ESA, anything goes since it no longer affects you.

Maat_Mons

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2010, 04:33:57 PM »
That feat makes and AMF "not effect" you, therefore you can cast ANY of your spells out of it, not just instantaneous conj.

I don't see how the effects of spells you cast count as part of you. 

altpersona

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2010, 04:47:11 PM »
custom magic items, pouch of amf magnetic marbles.

scatter marbles, marble radiate amfs all over, good luck blocking them all. use a loadstone stick to recover your baubles when your done.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2010, 07:17:39 PM »
Ok, first off you are required by law to use Extraordinary Spell Aim with it. If you do not, you might as well just award the party XP and loot for defeating the guy you intended to use it and move on.

Once you've done that, you can take advantage of the fact that Conjuration: Creation > AMF works both ways by shooting orbs while inside it. Or you can just make a gish. Which is what you're already halfway to doing anyways.

I think you miss the point of Extraordinary Spell Aim.

That feat makes and AMF "not effect" you, therefore you can cast ANY of your spells out of it, not just instantaneous conj.

You're right, every wizard/sorc should have it, but I thought this was already a given.

Also, not sure most people realize this, but the feat causes it to "not effect" you, it doesn't say anything about it not effecting anyone else, and by extension their spells. So if you have an ESAed AMF around yourself youre effectively immune to all spells, except those instantaneous ones; most of which can be taken care of with a ray deflection or friendly fire.

Or you could just pull the whole ghostform trick. Normally you would blink out, but since the AMF doesn't effect you it wont effect your ghostform. However, for purposes of interacting with other's spells and abilities you are effectively an incorporeal creature inside an AMF. Now you're virtually invulnerable to pretty much any form of attack...tack on a forceward, and a friendly fire and I think that basically covers everything except a non-magical seren quarterstaff or other wooden weapon. The only thing that can stop you is, of course, another AMF...and maybe an iron heart surge.

Creative uses of AMF are the only way to combat high level mages aware of tricks like this.


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Endarire

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2010, 11:00:39 PM »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

snakeman830

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2010, 12:58:35 AM »
Rules Compendium states that an AMF does not block line of Effect, so you could, if you wanted to, Disintegrate someone on the opposite side of an AMF from you.  Among other things, this makes it so Extraordinary Spell Aim doesn't protect you from ranged spells that aren't AoE (those are frequently centered in the AMF, so the whole spell would be suppressed)

The best way to use ESA+AMF is actually grappling.  Freedom of Movement/Heart of Water are suppressed, so your target can't just slip out.  If you target casters with this, you frequently kill them.  Same is true with beatsticks.

For example, a Cleric 11/Barbarian 1/Black-Blood Cultist 8 with the Magic domain can make for a terrifying foe, especially with DMM(Persist).  Best use of an AMF that's still centered on you that I can think of, anyway.
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X-Codes

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2010, 01:02:42 AM »
Rules Compendium states that an AMF does not block line of Effect, so you could, if you wanted to, Disintegrate someone on the opposite side of an AMF from you.  Among other things, this makes it so Extraordinary Spell Aim doesn't protect you from ranged spells that aren't AoE (those are frequently centered in the AMF, so the whole spell would be suppressed)

The best way to use ESA+AMF is actually grappling.  Freedom of Movement/Heart of Water are suppressed, so your target can't just slip out.  If you target casters with this, you frequently kill them.  Same is true with beatsticks.

For example, a Cleric 11/Barbarian 1/Black-Blood Cultist 8 with the Magic domain can make for a terrifying foe, especially with DMM(Persist).  Best use of an AMF that's still centered on you that I can think of, anyway.
Actually, no.  When you grapple someone/something, you have to be in the same space as they are.  If you ESA yourself out of the space, then you also ESA anything you grapple out of the space, allowing them to use their Freedom of Movement effect to escape and retreat normally.

snakeman830

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2010, 01:06:06 AM »
Rules Compendium states that an AMF does not block line of Effect, so you could, if you wanted to, Disintegrate someone on the opposite side of an AMF from you.  Among other things, this makes it so Extraordinary Spell Aim doesn't protect you from ranged spells that aren't AoE (those are frequently centered in the AMF, so the whole spell would be suppressed)

The best way to use ESA+AMF is actually grappling.  Freedom of Movement/Heart of Water are suppressed, so your target can't just slip out.  If you target casters with this, you frequently kill them.  Same is true with beatsticks.

For example, a Cleric 11/Barbarian 1/Black-Blood Cultist 8 with the Magic domain can make for a terrifying foe, especially with DMM(Persist).  Best use of an AMF that's still centered on you that I can think of, anyway.
Actually, no.  When you grapple someone/something, you have to be in the same space as they are.  If you ESA yourself out of the space, then you also ESA anything you grapple out of the space, allowing them to use their Freedom of Movement effect to escape and retreat normally.
Actually yes.  ESA does not say you exclude a space, just a creature.  Basically, the AMF forms a skin-tight suit around you.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

X-Codes

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2010, 01:17:45 AM »
Rules Compendium states that an AMF does not block line of Effect, so you could, if you wanted to, Disintegrate someone on the opposite side of an AMF from you.  Among other things, this makes it so Extraordinary Spell Aim doesn't protect you from ranged spells that aren't AoE (those are frequently centered in the AMF, so the whole spell would be suppressed)

The best way to use ESA+AMF is actually grappling.  Freedom of Movement/Heart of Water are suppressed, so your target can't just slip out.  If you target casters with this, you frequently kill them.  Same is true with beatsticks.

For example, a Cleric 11/Barbarian 1/Black-Blood Cultist 8 with the Magic domain can make for a terrifying foe, especially with DMM(Persist).  Best use of an AMF that's still centered on you that I can think of, anyway.
Actually, no.  When you grapple someone/something, you have to be in the same space as they are.  If you ESA yourself out of the space, then you also ESA anything you grapple out of the space, allowing them to use their Freedom of Movement effect to escape and retreat normally.
Actually yes.  ESA does not say you exclude a space, just a creature.  Basically, the AMF forms a skin-tight suit around you.
Eh?  So it is.  What's the feat/ability that allows you to exclude a 10' cube from a spell's area (since it's apparently not ESA)?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2010, 01:21:28 AM »
Archmage mastery of shaping, I think?
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X-Codes

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2010, 01:27:05 AM »
Archmage mastery of shaping, I think?
Yeah, that's it.

Echoes

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2010, 05:34:29 AM »
Rules Compendium states that an AMF does not block line of Effect, so you could, if you wanted to, Disintegrate someone on the opposite side of an AMF from you.  Among other things, this makes it so Extraordinary Spell Aim doesn't protect you from ranged spells that aren't AoE (those are frequently centered in the AMF, so the whole spell would be suppressed).

Actually, it does stop any non-"instantaneous Conjuration" effects. Because ESA doesn't actually change how the spell functions (despite what the fluff states). It simply makes it so that a single creature (you, in this case) is unaffected by the spell. Because non-"instantaneous Conjuration" effects don't exist inside an antimagic field, they never interact with you to begin with. You can still cast spells, and all of the spells affecting you when you cast the ESA'd antimagic field still work because, for you, that antimagic field doesn't exist.
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Azrael

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2010, 03:04:42 PM »
Actually yes.  ESA does not say you exclude a space, just a creature.  Basically, the AMF forms a skin-tight suit around you.

No, this is a common misconception. There is no skin-tight suit, that would still be an area per-say. The AMF runs through you completely (as it normally would, the feat doesn't specify any change in the spell's area), it just fails to affect you, any of your items, or spells...its a fucking GOD-Tier feat. This also means that ranged spells don't have LoE to you. Just because the AMF doesn't affect you doesn't mean it doesn't act normally for other people and their spells. Any ranged spells would either be negated (if they specifically target you), or go right through the field on the other side (if they are something like lightning bolt).

In other words, for all purposes of interacting with you, your spell effects, items, etc the AMF doesn't exist. However, for purposes of interacting with anyone else and their effects, it is a completely normal AMF.

Essentially if two mages have spell aimed AMF around themselves (and a few other spells like friendly fire, ghostform, and forceward) they are virtually immune to anything they throw at each other. It becomes a battle of who can trap the other in an AMF first and pummel them with orbs of force, or the like. The other interesting thing is (unless their AMF is widened, and the other mage's is not) they cant use the spell aimed AMF's they have around themselves to trap each other because doing so would put each other in the space of the opposing mages AMF thus canceling out each of their spells and ability to cast (unless one of them has invoke magic as well). They have to find another way to trap the opposing mage inside and AMF (probably by using a forcecage and shapechanging cohort into beholder), and either gradually whittle them down with orbs, or be forced to kill them in one round because the other mage has invoke magic and will simply dimension door when his turn comes up.

 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 03:09:25 PM by Azrael »

snakeman830

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2010, 03:13:05 PM »
Regardless, it works extremely well for grappling.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Azrael

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2010, 03:23:39 PM »
I guess...if your Mage cast giant form or something to give you ridiculous Str before-hand (or are just a Gish to begin with)...or cast it on the fighter. Otherwise you're likely in the same boat as the enemy mage is; with an 8 str :(

I personally like to maximize its effects with feats like extra familiar, enspelled familiar, and improved familiar to get a couple ephemeral swarm familiars with spell aimed AMF around them, making them pretty much immune to everything (since they are incorporeal), and able to just sit on an enemy and gradually drain their str to 0.

Like this build...

Human Cleric 1 (magic, plan), Wizard 5, Incantrix 10, Dweomerkeeper 4

HP: 87
AC: 25
Init: +14

Str: 8
Dex: 20
Con: 12
Int: 34
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

BAB/Grap: +9/+4

Attacks: +21/+16 Melee Touch (3d6 +18; Thunderlance, 20ft reach) or
+14 Ranged Touch (varies).

Fort: +18
Ref: +20
Will: +29

SKills: Appraise +17(5), Craft Alchemy +20(8), Concentration +24(23),
Decipher Script +35(23), Diplomacy +30(14), Heal +10(10),
Knowledge Arcana +35(23), Knowledge Architecture and Engineering +15(3),
Knowledge Dungeoneering +30(18), Knowledge Geography +15(3),
Knowledge History +26(14), Knowledge Local +22(10),
Knowledge Nature +30(18), Knowledge Nobility and Royalty +15(3),
Knowledge Religion +35(23), Knowlege The Planes +35(23), Listen +11(11),
Sense Motive +11(11), Sleight of Hand +16(11), Spellcraft +47(23),
Spot +11(11).

Skill Tricks: Conceal Spellcasting, False Theurgy, Magical Appraisal,
Swift Concentration

Feats (13): Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Scribe Scroll,
Envelope the Wall, Maximize Spell, Persist Spell, Irresistible Spell,
Extra Familiar x2, Enspell Familiar, Divine Defiance,
Divine Countermagic, Improved Familiar, Extraordinary Spell Aim,
Twin Spell, Iron Will.

Class Abilities: Turn Undead 46/day, Focused Study (ench prohibited),
Coopertive Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, Metamagic Spell Trigger,
Seize Concentration, Instant Metamagic 2/day, Snatch Spell,
Improved Metamagic, Mantle of Spells (Forcecage, Time Stop),
Arcane Sight at will, Supernatural Spell 1/day.

Items: Vest of the Archmage, Headband of Int +6, Tome of Int +5,
Casting Glove, Rod of Absorbtion, +1 Spiked Gauntlet (eagerness,
warning, spellblade - greater dispel magic, spell theft,
chain dispel, reaving dispel), Belt of Battle, Boots of Dex +4,
Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Anticipation, Nightstick x10,
Third Eye of Spellcraft +10, Mantle of Second Chances, Amulet of Arcane
Spell Conversion, Mithril Chainshirt +5 (empyreal, twilight),
Wand of Orb of Force (10th), Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend x2,
Scroll of Major Image, Scroll of Rary's Telepathic Bond,
Scroll of Contingency, Scroll of Feeblemind, Scroll of Familiar Refuge,
Scroll of Mind Blank, Scroll of Gate, 4,150 Gold.

Spellbook:

1st: Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I, Bloodwind, Vigilant Slumber,
Alarm, Magic Missile, Horde Gullet.   
2nd: Rope Trick, Wraithstrike, Frost Breath, Dimension Hop.
3rd: Anticipate Teleportation, Manyjaws, Sonorous Hum, Fly, Major Image.
4th: Orb of Force, Celerity, Friendly Fire, Thunderlance,
5th: Teleport, Flesh to Ice, Greater Dimension Door, Telekinesis,
Feeblemind, Rary's Telepathic Bond.
6th: Antimagic Field, Imbue Familiar with Special Ability, True Seeing,
Eyes of the Oracle, Contingency, Familiar Refuge.
7th: Forcecage, Energy Immunity, Avasculate, Greater Scrying. 
8th: Veil of Undeath, Polymorph Any Object, Superior Invisibility,
Discern Location, Mind Blank.
9th: Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Invoke Magic, Shapechange, Frostfell,
Wish, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Ice Assassin, Gate. 

Spells Prepared:
0(4): Prestidigitation (4)
1st(7): Nerveskitter (4), Summon Monster I (2), Alarm.
2nd(7): Dimension Hop (5), Wraithstrike*, Rope Trick.
3rd(7): Manyjaws, Sonorous Hum (maintains Major Image)*,
Sonorous Hum (2), Fly*, Major Image (cast),
Anticipate Teleportation (cast).
4th(7): Thunderlance*, Celerity (3), Orb of Force (3).
5th(6): Manyjaws (maximized), Frost Breath (irresistible),
Teleport (3), Greater Dimension Door*.
6th(6): Antimagic Field (spell aimed)**, Imbue Familiar with Special
Ability (3), True Seeing*, Eyes of the Oracle.
7th(6): Energy Immunity (2) (cast; fire, acid),
Orb of Force (maximized) (4).
8th(5): Veil of Undeath*, Superior Invisibility**, Mind Blank (cast),
Polymorph Any Object, Flesh to Ice (irresistible).
9th(4): Frostfell, Maw of Chaos, Shapechange***+, Invoke Magic.

* Persisted with Metamagic Effect
** Persisted with Metamagic Effect and Shared with each ephemeral
swarm familiar.
*** Persisted with Metamagic Effect and shared with imp familiar
+ Regained with one use from vest of the archmagi.


Familiars: Imp, Ephemeral Swarm x2

Notes:

1. Used Imbue Familiar with Special Ability on each familiar to
transfer the following spells: Each ephemeral swarm recieves two
dimension hop spells, and the imp recieves a dimension hop, a teleport,
and an irresistible frost breath.

2. Normally assumes form of a troll from his persisted shapechange,
this, combined with his veil of undeath and energy immunity spells
makes him invulnerable to damage.

3. Shapechanges into a elemental weird about once every 3 hours in
order to cast foresight on self.

4. Due to each spell aimed AMF active on each ephemeral swarm they are
virtually immune to every effect; since they are incorporeal and
technically inside an AMF, although it technically doesnt affect them.

5. His persisted sonorous hum maintains an image of himself which he
utilizes to fool any enemy without true seeing into attacking the
image while he, and his familiars remain invisible. In order for
someone to attack him they would have to have trueseeing up prior to
battle and get within 120 ft of him without him noticing.

6. Unless otherwise specified the imp always readies an action to
cast teleport on his master and himself if they are in danger.


buy scroll of dimension door for invoke magic.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2010, 06:24:48 PM »
Actually yes.  ESA does not say you exclude a space, just a creature.  Basically, the AMF forms a skin-tight suit around you.

No, this is a common misconception. There is no skin-tight suit, that would still be an area per-say. The AMF runs through you completely (as it normally would, the feat doesn't specify any change in the spell's area),

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Nameless Void

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2010, 08:58:20 PM »
Which means all spells cast into the Antimagic Field will still affect that character.
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snakeman830

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2010, 10:26:43 PM »
Precisely.  It still makes for an excellent grappler or gish tactic as all of your targets are buffless when you engage them.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Nameless Void

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Re: Optimizing Anti Magic Field.
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2010, 03:11:22 AM »
Which is why my grappler carries an Antimagic Torc. For those fun times when casters try to grapple with him.
Quote from: Solo on MW
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.